Colin Drummond Kirkpatrick...R.G.A.

[Dave66]

Afternoon all,

Looking back through old files whilst ancestry has a free search, and have always struggled to establish a unit for this chap...be interested to pinning down some war diaries if available, but artillery some what confusing.

M.C. I think in Salonica but can't find a citation, also M.I.D., medal card below.

Appreciate any pointers,

Dave.

Edited 7 July , 2018 by Dave66

[daggers]

The MC may be on a separate card, still held by TNA at Kew, for which you have to pay.

The Mention should be in the Gazette, but it’s not easy to search.

 

D

[Dave66]

4 minutes ago, daggers said:

The MC may be on a separate card, still held by TNA at Kew, for which you have to pay.

The Mention should be in the Gazette, but it’s not easy to search.

 

D

Thanks Daggers,

I have all his gazette entries from 1901 until the 30's, but both m.c. and m.i.d. just the standard list form, may well have to see whats on the kew file at a later date.

Medal Roll has him overseas from Dec 14, so if I can pin down a siege battery I may find him in a war diary somewhere.

Dave.

[charlie962]

MC seems to be 1918 New Year Hons List ?

[Dave66]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

MC seems to be 1918 New Year Hons List ?

Many thanks Charlie, that did cross my mind originally, and the m.i.d  definitely Salonica.

Interesting chap, he was the son of Brigadier General W.J.Kirkpatrick, so well connected, with a society wedding in the states at oyster bay in 1925.

Harts has him as part of 49th company R.G.A. at Cork Harbour in 1908, promoted to captain Nov 1914 but the scribble above F.A.B. (Which I presume Field Artillery Brigade) On his card is confusing....3/68...?

 

Dave.

 

 

[charlie962]

18 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

On his card is confusing....3/68...?

Indeed.  It looks to me like B 68 Field Ambulance. In 1915 68 Field Ambulance was with 22 Div which went via France to Salonika. Artillery was late in arriving. Could Kirkpatrick have helped out at 68 FA whilst waiting for his guns ??

[MaxD]

His card says he is with 10 Brigade RGA for his 1914-15 Star.  The scribble above FAB is surely (something) Field Ambulance (as Charlie notes)   His 1914/15 Star roll entry has France 12 /14.  BW and V roll unenlightening except both are RGA rolls and LG entries found are RGA. FAB is unusual/rubbish as post nominals for a Gunner even though NA have Field Artillery Brigade in the title of his medal card? Although in 1919 he becomes commander of an artillery brigade  = possible RFA?? He is RGA in 1914 (promotion Lt - Capt) (as Dave notes) and the MC comes between March 17 and Sep 19 when he is consistently RGA.  

No officer records at NA seen.

 

Disjointed I'm afraid. 

 

Max

[clk]

Hi,

 

4 hours ago, daggers said:

The MC may be on a separate card, still held by TNA at Kew, for which you have to pay.

 

The MC index cards, and the (sometimes hand annotated) registers are available as free downloads from the National Archives. The index card for Kirkpatrick is:

 

As the LG date is 1.1.1918, I didn't look for a citation as it would seem to be an honours award which is very likely not to have one.

 

It looks like he served post war under the admin number of P23839.

Image source: The National Archives - file WO 338/11/14

 

Which would make him this man in the files held by the MoD

 

You could get a copy (probably heavily weeded) for £30 - link

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

 

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, MaxD said:

His card says he is with 10 Brigade RGA for his 1914-15 Star. 

As the other side of his MIC shows, 10 Bde RGA was his post-war address at Larkhill.

[Dave66]

Thanks guys....I've struggled with this one for years as doesn't seem to make sense!

9 minutes ago, MaxD said:

His card says he is with 10 Brigade RGA for his 1914-15 Star.  The scribble above FAB is surely (something) Field Ambulance (as Charlie notes)   His 1914/15 Star roll entry has France 12 /14.  BW and V roll unenlightening except both are RGA rolls and LG entries found are RGA. FAB is unusual/rubbish as post nominals for a Gunner even though NA have Field Artillery Brigade in the title of his medal card? Although in 1919 he becomes commander of an artillery brigade  = possible RFA?? He is RGA in 1914 (promotion Lt - Capt) (as Dave notes) and the MC comes between March 17 and Sep 19 when he is consistently RGA.  

No officer records at NA seen.

 

Disjointed I'm afraid. 

 

Max

I've often wondered if he had a role in the field artillery, but clearly always been garrison according to the official notifications I've seen.

certainly disjointed and damned confusing!

10 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi,

 

 

The MC index cards, and the (sometimes hand annotated) registers are available as free downloads from the National Archives. The index card for Kirkpatrick is:

 

As the LG date is 1.1.1918, I didn't look for a citation as it would seem to be an honours award which is very likely not to have one.

 

It looks like he served post war under the admin number of P23839.

Image source: The National Archives - file WO 338/11/14

 

Which would make him this man in the files held by the MoD

 

You could get a copy (probably heavily weeded) for £30 - link

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

 

Thanks Chris, I think that's confirmed the M.C. was an honours rather than an achievement...doesn't surprise me and backs up Charlie.

his last Gazette entry was 1925, retiring, but the 1939 register shows him as working for the war office which would tie in with the extra info....I have a copy of war office list 1941 and can't see him, but will go through it tomorrow in depth if S.W.M.B.O. will be quiet!

 

Dave.

[charlie962]

An odd snippet 1912

Lieut. C. D. Kirkpatrick, No. 48 (Heavy) Battery at Woolwich, has been posted to No. 78 (Heavy) Battery at Nowgong.

 

As to his society wedding it did not seem to last long. He is noted as still serving ? (FindmyPast will have the full article.

     

 

Charlie

 

[Dave66]

23 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

An odd snippet 1912

Lieut. C. D. Kirkpatrick, No. 48 (Heavy) Battery at Woolwich, has been posted to No. 78 (Heavy) Battery at Nowgong.

 

As to his society wedding it did not seem to last long. He is noted as still serving ? (FindmyPast will have the full article.

     

 

Charlie

 

Well that's interesting, never new about Nowgong.

Marriage to Mary Thomas (wedding covered by Mrs Roosevelt) didn't last long. Explains why his probate in 1958 leaves £16337 to a Mary Helen mayfield(married woman) the plot thickens!...sadly no find my past.

 

Edited 7 July , 2018 by Dave66

[clk]

Hi,

 

Cheating with the FMP search engine you appear to get...

 

PREFERRED ROD AND REEL. Fishing Widow Gets a Divorce Mary Tflomas Kirkpatrick, who well known in New York society, was yesterday granted, in Reno, Nevada, a divorce Major Colin Drummond Kirkpatrick, an officer the British Army, on the ground of alleged cruelty. The plaintiff alleged (wires Reuter) that she was a fishing widow,” and that her husband, who had house Wales, devoted so much time to rod and reel that she had no social life whatever.

 

Regards

Chris

[Dave66]

3 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi,

 

Cheating with the FMP search engine you appear to get...

 

PREFERRED ROD AND REEL. Fishing Widow Gets a Divorce Mary Tflomas Kirkpatrick, who well known in New York society, was yesterday granted, in Reno, Nevada, a divorce Major Colin Drummond Kirkpatrick, an officer the British Army, on the ground of alleged cruelty. The plaintiff alleged (wires Reuter) that she was a fishing widow,” and that her husband, who had house Wales, devoted so much time to rod and reel that she had no social life whatever.

 

Regards

Chris

A fishing widow with house Wales...more fascinating as the story progresses!

many thanks Chris,

 

Dave.

[MaxD]

11 hours ago, charlie962 said:

As the other side of his MIC shows, 10 Bde RGA was his post-war address at Larkhill.

Of course stupid of me!

 

Very fine lateral thinking by Chris and Charlie.

 

Max

[charlie962]

11 hours ago, Dave66 said:

A fishing widow

But the Divorce Court said it was 'extreme' cruelty. (see attachments to an Ancestry Tree).  To the fish maybe ?

[Dave66]

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

But the Divorce Court said it was 'extreme' cruelty. (see attachments to an Ancestry Tree).  To the fish maybe ?

Love to find out the real reason!

 

Spent the afternoon trying to find any mention of him in war diaries, and no joy. Also went through both the 40 and 41 war office lists and drew a blank....certainly looks like his actual wearabouts shall remain a mystery.

 

Thanks all for the help,

 

Dave.

[charlie962]

For his Mention it is Salonika in LG 28/11/17

  

and under RGA:

 

Charlie

Edited 8 July , 2018 by charlie962

[Dave66]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

For his Mention it is in LG 28/11/17

  

and under RGA:

 

Charlie

Thanks Charlie,

i have a copy of the page he's listed on, but not the actual heading confirming Salonica so most helpful.

 

Are any war diaries available for the Salonica campaign? 

 

Dave.

 

[charlie962]

6 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

Are any war diaries available for the Salonica campaign? 

Yes but not digitised so you have to visit NA.

 

re MiD.  Note that it says 'past six months' to Oct 1917

Edited 8 July , 2018 by charlie962

[Dave66]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Yes but not digitised so you have to visit NA.

 

re MiD.  Note that it says 'past six months' to Oct 1917

I didn't think they were...never mind.

I did see the last six months bit, which would put him out there early 17 so possibly a division that arrived late?...obviously by then with field artillery.

 

Dave.

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

possibly a division that arrived late

not neccesarily. It is just the service that was worthy of mention that was in those six months.

[Dave66]

7 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

not neccesarily. It is just the service that was worthy of mention that was in those six months.

I have to say, artillery is not the easiest thing to navigate and pin down if  you're not used to it!

 

Dave.

[Cmacf1]

Hi - I am the granddaughter of Colin Drummond Kirkpatrick. It was my maternal grandmother he married at the 'society wedding' on Long Island. I will have to look at what I have on his military history - not sure I can give you much help on that. However, I can tell you more about his personal life. He and my grandmother, Mary Thomas, met on a ship. Not sure where the ship was going or coming from (perhaps India) and they fell in love. He was quite a bit older than her. They married in either 1924 or 1925 and bought the manor house Llangattock Court in Crickhowell, Wales. My grandmother was sent to Harrods in London to procure all the furniture needed for Llangattock Court. I have a piece of that furniture at my home outside Baltimore, Maryland. My aunt Sheila (perhaps named after Colin's sister Sheila) was born in 1926. My mother, Jean, was born in 1928. Colin apparently wanted to purchase Llangattock Court because of its nearness to the River Usk which was a great river to fish. Instead of spending time (according to my mom) with Mary and the kids, he spent all of his time fishing (hence, the 'fishing widow.') She quickly grew disillusioned with this. I think the 'extreme cruelty' is because when she said she wanted to leave him, he said either he gets the two daughters or else he would never agree to see them again. My grandmother took Sheila and Jean and left for the states. She procured a divorce in Reno, Nevada without his presence. I do not know if there was more to the 'extreme cruelty' or not. My mother and aunt never saw her father after 1929.

 

In searching some genealogical sites, under the Kirkpatricks, there is absolutely no mention of Jean and Sheila Kirkpatrick. I have sent some of the descendants messages regarding the existence of Colin's two children and I have received no reply. Between Sheila and Jean, there are seven grandchildren of Colin's and 12 great-grandchildren. I may be able to find more tidbits of information on Colin. I will search in my files later.

 

[Dave66]

1 hour ago, Cmacf1 said:

Hi - I am the granddaughter of Colin Drummond Kirkpatrick. It was my maternal grandmother he married at the 'society wedding' on Long Island. I will have to look at what I have on his military history - not sure I can give you much help on that. However, I can tell you more about his personal life. He and my grandmother, Mary Thomas, met on a ship. Not sure where the ship was going or coming from (perhaps India) and they fell in love. He was quite a bit older than her. They married in either 1924 or 1925 and bought the manor house Llangattock Court in Crickhowell, Wales. My grandmother was sent to Harrods in London to procure all the furniture needed for Llangattock Court. I have a piece of that furniture at my home outside Baltimore, Maryland. My aunt Sheila (perhaps named after Colin's sister Sheila) was born in 1926. My mother, Jean, was born in 1928. Colin apparently wanted to purchase Llangattock Court because of its nearness to the River Usk which was a great river to fish. Instead of spending time (according to my mom) with Mary and the kids, he spent all of his time fishing (hence, the 'fishing widow.') She quickly grew disillusioned with this. I think the 'extreme cruelty' is because when she said she wanted to leave him, he said either he gets the two daughters or else he would never agree to see them again. My grandmother took Sheila and Jean and left for the states. She procured a divorce in Reno, Nevada without his presence. I do not know if there was more to the 'extreme cruelty' or not. My mother and aunt never saw her father after 1929.

 

In searching some genealogical sites, under the Kirkpatricks, there is absolutely no mention of Jean and Sheila Kirkpatrick. I have sent some of the descendants messages regarding the existence of Colin's two children and I have received no reply. Between Sheila and Jean, there are seven grandchildren of Colin's and 12 great-grandchildren. I may be able to find more tidbits of information on Colin. I will search in my files later.

 

Many thanks for replying and sharing that very detailed information, a very sad story for a daughter never to see her father again for whatever reason, and the extreme cruelty is more than justified.

I started looking at him when I purchased his officers sword a good few years ago, He became a second lieutenant in 1903, and had his name etched on the blade, in 1906 he becomes a lieutenant and has the blade corrected to show his new rank.

I presume you have the basics, birth, probate etc...if not quite happy to help with anything I have here.

The one thing I've never found is a portrait, does the family have an image, if so I would greatly appreciate putting a face to the Sword.

 

Dave.