Repatriation of Turkish PoW

[PHalsall]

Just located a report that appeared in many of the Australian and British papers around this time. It is located in 'Trove' in various slightly different forms. This is the clearest Melbourne Herald. There are some interesting details including the fact that after the armistice the POWs were taken to a hotel in Constantinople and given their parcels - 3,000 of which had accumulated during the war, some three years old. They then travel on the Katoomba to Taranto.

It also gives the names of ANZACs who disembarked at Taranto to go to England. One of them is Joseph O'Neill discussed in #6. I now know that he was captured with my GF as part of Newcombe's force in Nov 1917, completed the march from Palestine to Turkey with him .... then in Nov 1918 they are both in Constantinople, and travel back to England, first on the Katoomba then along the MLC to Calais then Dover. Obviously its the bit in the middle that intrigues me. My GD was at Gelebek, O'Neill's record shows Bor. Bor was a convalescence camp so it is quite possible that he was moved from there to another camp once his health improved, quite possibly one of the Taurus camps like Belemedik or Gelebek which are fairly close by. It would be fascinating to know if he did move to one of these camps as that would raise the possibility that he and my GD 'escaped' together. As far as I know, they are the only two POWs to get to Constantinople in time for the Katoomba from this distance. Sadly, his repatriation statement is not online.... interesting nevertheless.

[JWK]

I'll just park this here for future reference (and before I lose the link again!)

Not really connected (?) to the story at hand, it's more "colouring in the background".(Oh, I just had a Bob Ross moment.... )

And who knows, maybe in the future a descendant of an English officer wants to know where his ancestor was billeted in november 1918 in Constantinople...

 

From "de Telegraaf" a (still existing) Dutch newspaper, 23 november 1918  ( Link to Delpher here )

in short:

A report to "the Times" dated 14th november 1918

The English in Constantinople

The German officers who are still here drive around in their cars at breakneck speed ("like lunatics")

The English officers, who are billeted in the "Hotel de Londres", completely ignore them.

English admiral Gough Calthorpe paid a visit to Tewfik Pasja [the Ottoman Minister of Foreign Affairs] and afterwards called on the Dutch minister to thank him for the "excellent work he had done managing British interests".

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 October , 2018 by JWK

[PHalsall]

JWK,

 

Thanks for that post.  I actually find that these slightly indirect pieces of information are often the most interesting. I am very much a novice in the area of historical research but my instinct is to try and get a 'feel' for what things were like on the ground as well as the black and white facts. It paints a more full picture. Keep 'em coming!

 

Pete

[JWK]

 

From "Het nieuws van den dag voor Nederlandsch-Indië" ("The News of the Day for the Dutch East-Indies" . of 5th november 1918:

Link to the newspaperpage here

 

London, 2 november 1918

The situation in Turkey

Constantinople is in a state of anarchy.

Throughout Turkey hundreds and thousands of deserters live off robbery and theft.

 

 

 

 

Edited 5 October , 2018 by JWK

[charlie962]

11 hours ago, PHalsall said:

 I actually find that these slightly indirect pieces of information are often the most interesting.

I would agree. It is the little details that make the story live. Thanks Pete for the Katoomba stuff andJWK for these bits.

Charlie

[PHalsall]

JWK

 

All those deserters living off robbery and theft. There were thousands of Ottoman troops fleeing back to Turkey, often having deserted, once they became overrun by the British. They really suffered, even resorting to drinking camel urine apparently.

If you are interested in the period then this is a good read Diary of Sammi Yengin

 

Pete

[JWK]

Here's another article, from more or less the time (or just before) your grandfather made his way to Constantinople.

 

"De Telegraaf" 26 october 1918

 

Quote

 

Turks against Germans

London, 25 october [1918]

There are many Turkish deserters in Asia Minor, all armed and in many cases under command of their own officers.

Last week these deserters held up a train, carrying many German officers.

These Germans were dragged out of the train, severely beaten and some had their throats slit.

Others could escape by placing themselves under the protection of a group of British POW’s who were also on that train.

Amongst the passengers there were also some Austrians, who were treated very well by the Turks, as they consider them fellow victims of Germany.  

The tension between the Turks and the Germans runs very high, and the German troops in Constantinople are regarded with hate and mistrust. 

Their domination of the Turkish capital has come to an end since the dissipation of Enver Pasja's power.

 

 

 

Edited 5 October , 2018 by JWK

[charlie962]

22 hours ago, PHalsall said:

Sadly, his repatriation statement is not online..

They will quote for digitising, no idea how much- or perhaps you've found a good Aussie researcher ?

[PHalsall]

Hi Charlie, 

 

That's interesting. I looked at the website but perhaps mistakenly had the impression that the digitised copy had to be collected. I'll check again to see if they will email a digital version.

Good tip,

 

Pete

[PHalsall]

JWK

 

Apologies for the delay in responding. That's an incredible description of the state of affairs on the railways. I had read that after the armistice, people in Constantinople would throw rotten vegetables at the Germans, but I had no I idea there was such animosity against the Germans this early. The British POW involvement is also fascinating as it again illustrates the fact that the POWs were leaving camps well before the 30th October Armistice. Great find!

 

Charlie,

 

I submitted a request for a digitising quote last week. Fingers crossed. I see there are some disruptions to service at the moment as they seem to be 'moving house'. I'll have to be patient.

 

Pete 

[PHalsall]

Charlie / JWK

 

The photographs of POWs on the quayside in Constantinople. I see that a few more , originals, have appeared on a famous auction website. I'm not suggesting you would want to purchase them, but you might be interested just to see what they contain.

 

General Wilson at Constantinople

 

Pete

[charlie962]

I am not a buyer but encouraging to see for sure there are more photos. Thanks

Charlie

 

PS. Pete, you are getting some interesting replies about railways on axis history forum, I see. List of Railway stations is helpful as is Kilometer marking. Some station names are obvious but others ? You have done some v. useful digging. Keep going.

Edited 12 October , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

I like this 1915 map to give an (exagerated) idea of the relief.

                              

[PHalsall]

The map is tremendous! Funnily enough, I have been looking at a lot of maps recently in order to illustrate my GD's journey from capture to POW camp, and then eventually on to Constantinople. There are plenty of them but very few give a real sense of the topography. Campaign maps are usually 'flat' and if the map isn't absolutely of the time than place names change, roads are added etc. This one is particularly interesting, slightly 'fairytale' in style but all the better for it. Thanks.

 

The axishistory forum people have been very helpful. I was quite surprised at the number of tunnels he would have passed through en route, also by the elevation changes. Gelebek (Kelebek) being so much lower than Belemedik, even though they are fairly close in distance.

Edited 12 October , 2018 by PHalsall

[charlie962]

I think part of the text below the map  means 'he should have gone to specsavers' ?  I cannot read the writing on the map itself but it could be quite useful to draw over the railway line in red and then indicate the key points that appear in a particular man's voyage .

 

Charlie

Edited 12 October , 2018 by charlie962

[JWK]

Umm, no.  "Specsavers" wasn't even a sparkle in its parents' eyes in 1915. Its parents were probably not even born by then.

 

Die Türkei und die Bagdadbahn 1915. Zeitgenössische Vogelschauperspektive

Turkey and the Baghdad(railway)line. Contemporary bird's eye view

 

and here the same map from a Turkish site. The website calls it  "Alman haritasinda bağdat hattıp"  ("Baghdad line on a German map") so railwaylines are dotted in red? (And I found this map through Charlie962's map!)

 

Edited 12 October , 2018 by JWK

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, JWK said:

so the red line is the railwaylines?

The map is dated 1915 but the red dotted line could be interpreted as either the proposed line or the (post 1918) completed line. It is something in between we need- as is shown well on a couple of other maps already posted on this forum.

[MaureenE]

michaeldr posted this map

 

[charlie962]

It is a very useful map, Maureen and I've already made use of it. It also appeared in miniature in Patrick Crowley's book on Kut.  But what I find is that each person's account has names that appear on one map but not another and sometimes not at all. I am getting better at the guesswork for some soldiers' interpretations of what they heard but it is easy to make mistakes. What would be useful is a clean map without any names but showing railway line 1915-18 and a simplified idea of contours and to which one could add the key points appearing in an individual soldier's story. I haven't the skills to achieve this. I'v tried using Paint but overlaying on any of the existing maps gets very cluttered and loses me very quickly.

 

Another of the good ideas is this simplified sketch map that I have posted previously (as may have others?). The railway tunnels not truely to scale but overall a good map for illustrating the march of those taken at Kut.  But place names need revising and there needs to be an enlargement of the main work camps east and west of Adana.

                 

 

Charlie

 

[PHalsall]

The previous thread that Maureene kindly points us to also includes an interesting post about the Bavarian Arial Reconnaissance photographs of this area. The links seem dead now as the Bavarian Archive site has perhaps been re-organised. However, I was able to locate these on the site Bavarian Archive and they are indeed well worth a look!

 

Pete

[PHalsall]

This is the beginning of an idea, rather than a finished product, but could be tidied up if useful. I have stitched together three parts of a map located on the Project Gutenberg, 'Pursuit of an 'Unparalleled Opportunity' site. The numbers refer to the camps so 1 - Adana etc. I could easily add a full key to this if needed. Note that Kut is not on the map unfortunately, though referred to. 

 

[PHalsall]

Actually, that map was a pretty dreadful effort! Leave it with me, I'll come up with something better.

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, PHalsall said:

indeed well worth a look!

Your link comes up with the sarch screen but what are the keywords to use?

[PHalsall]

I got about 16 returns using the search term taurus. There must be more according to michaeldr's post.

[PHalsall]

There's another under amanus-gerbirge