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Remembered Today:

Repatriation of Turkish PoW


PHalsall

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Hi Steve

 

Just noted those responses to the post you made on the axis history forum. I see Tosun Saral has confirmed that the station continued its function despite damage to the building. Great response! Nice to have confirmation of that. Thanks again.

 

Pete

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That made me chuckle, Charlie. I am more than a few decades of study behind the real experts on this site...!

 

Point of reference for daft questions more like!

 

Pete

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 12/08/2018 at 21:17, charlie962 said:

dated it Constantinople 25/10/18.

I am reading this man's diary now and he was still in Constantinople, a free man but under some sort of British control awaiting repatriation when Gen Wilson arrived to take the surrender. So they did some drill beforehand. I will re-read and be more precise. It sort of links also with your Q about actual surrender date of Constantinople. It also gives a little detail of his route home via Salonika and Tarranto which may be relevant?

 

Charlie

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On 10/07/2018 at 23:01, charlie962 said:

One such repatriation interview was published recently here and mentions galebek inter-alia. Well worth a read.

   288798434_Kutgalebek.JPG.dfab546b680c9a8b972d71575c501ac5.JPG

 

Charlie

   

Thanks for posting Charlie.

The complete account  (click on the purple links)

"The Territory’s first and only Gallipoli prisoner" by Judy Boland, Progenitor, Quarterly Journal of the Genealogical Society of the Northern Territory Inc. June 2015-March 2016, Dec. 2016. Private John Beattie No. 1827, 15th Battalion Australian Infantry Forces was captured at Gallipoli August 8th 1915 when his Battalion was ordered to mount an attack on Hill 971. Part 1 pages 32-36 Capture. Part 2pages 49-54. Journey from a small port on the southern coast of the Gallipoli peninsula to Constantinople and into Prisoner-of-War camps. Part 3 page 74-80 Belemedik , Bore, Gelebek, Afion Kara Hissar. Part 4 pages 11- 18 Belemedik August 1918, changes from October 1918, and release. Part 5 pages 91-95 includes prior service in the British Army.

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks again Charlie and Maureene. Sorry about the slow response, I had failed to tick the 'Notify' button for this discussion. I apologise for the length of this response but its very interesting, at least to me, and I suspect you may find it worth the effort to read...

 

There is a pattern starting to fall into place whereby prisoners were released, or simply left camps before the Armistice on Oct 30th. In the last few weeks of October, in fact since Bulgaria surrendered and it became clear that Turkey / the Ottomans could not continue. Men arriving in Constantinople reported to the Dutch Legation who put them up in hotels, bet that made a nice change! One of the hotels was the Grand Hotel Kroeker, known to the men as 'krockers' hotel (formerly run by Austrians I think). This was in the Pera district. The Dutch kitted them out in khaki outfits (nice point from my own point of view as my GD's younger brother left a few notes including that when he eventually arrived in Central Station Birkenhead he was dressed in khaki (at first I assumed that meant in uniform). As you know, i have been trying to establish where and how he could see soldiers at a waterfront, approach them, find they are British and break down in tears of relief..there is also this very solid oral history of him being helped in Constantinople by an Englishman... . I think I may have solutions for both.

 

Helped by an Englishman: Seemed unlikely at first as surely they would all have been expelled at the beginning of the war. Certainly the Embassy was closed down, and their work taken over by the Dutch. Anyway, I had some great help from the Levantine Heritage site who pointed out that there was a tradition in the city of English nurses caring for soldiers. Florence Nightingale was an English nurse based in Constantinople during the Crimean War (1853-56), with 36 fellow nurses. She worked in the military hospital of Scutari on the Asian shore of Constantinople. Less well known are British civilian nurses who worked with the Ottoman Hilal-i Ahmer (precursor of the Turkish Red Crescent) and this tradition went as far back as at least the Russo-Turkish war. Many of these British nurses did receive medical training in the West and so their skills would have been very welcome to the hard-pressed Ottoman authorities who faced numerous disastrous wars through the period of the Balkan Wars, First World War etc. The numbers of war wounded in these horrific wars were immense and often the soldiers suffered from contagious diseases such as cholera and typhoid, so these volunteer nurses were certainly heroes of their day. In gratitude the Ottoman authorities allowed the British and French families of these nurses to remain in their Empire without restriction when WWI broke out, when the Ottomans quickly allied with the Germans and went about expelling the remaining British and French Levantines from the capitol. The main hospital for Constantinople at the time was the ‘Faculty of Medicine’, otherwise known as ‘The Imperial school of Medicine’. It was constructed on the Asian side of the city as the air was seen to be beneficial to the patients in contrast with the more polluted atmosphere on the European side. It was located next to Haydarpasha rail terminus.  This extract from ‘A History of the Istanbul Faculty of Medicine’ reveals that the Red Crescent is actually running the hospital at this time, as the doctors have been sent to the front to care for the wounded there.

‘After the professors and students had been dispatched to the military troops, the Faculty of Medicine was forced to close for a year and was given over to operate as a hospital for the wounded ……. The hospital was at first affiliated with the Ministry of War, but was later put under the command of the Red Crescent’.

 

There is also an intriguing insight into the situation in Constantinople at the time of Jim’s arrival there provided by Francis Yeats-Brown of ‘Mademoiselle Josephine’ fame. After his final and successful escape, lacking an elaborate disguise, but donning the fez that he always kept tucked inside his waistcoat should an opportunity arise he and Robin make their way to safety

Avoiding main streets, we toiled on and on, through dark by-ways where the moonlight did not come, until we reached the old bridge across the Golden Horn. Here we decided to separate for the time, so that if one of us was caught by the toll-keepers, the other could still make good his escape. But the toll-keepers took their tribute of a stamp without demur. They knew nothing of British prisoners.

Crossing, we turned right-handed, passing behind the American Ambassador's yacht Scorpion, at her berth near the Turkish Admiralty, and then went up into the European quarter. In Pera we knew a score of houses, between us, that would be glad to give us lodging, and it only remained to choose the most convenient.

………………….

It is late at night, some days before the Armistice. I am in the gardens of the British Embassy, with a certain Colonel, an escaped prisoner of war like myself, who is in close touch with the political situation. We had come here, in disguise, to be out of the turmoil of the town.

Outside, in the unquiet streets, men talk of revolution. Gangs of soldiers are under arms for twenty-four hours at a stretch. Machine guns are posted everywhere. The docks are an armed camp. Detectives and informers, the prison and the press-gang are at their old work. All is still dark in Constantinople; but we, fugitives at present, and meeting by stealth, speak of the day so soon to come when the barren flagstaff on the roof of the Embassy will carry the Union Jack.

Below us, as we walk on the terrace, lies the Golden Horn, silver in the starlight, and across its waters the city of Stamboul stands dim, forlorn, and lovely. The slip of moon that rides over San Sofia seems symbol of the waning of misery and intolerance. Soon that sickle will disappear, and when the moon of the Moslems rises again and looks through the garden where we talk, she will see all round it a happier city. . . . Let us hope so, anyway.

The Colonel I assume, is likely to be Newcombe, another escapee who has been living in the capitol incognito for several months. The interesting revelation here is that in Pera, the European quarter of the town there are many English, or English sympathizing families. It also tells us that in these few days before the armistice an escaped prisoner would still need to be in hiding. If Jim arrived in these weeks as seems likely, he would have been much safer if protected by a person(s) either in Pera or close to the Hydarpasha hospital.

Note as well that in the ‘Madamoiselle Josephine’ escapade, Miss Whitaker is English. She is clearly able to live openly and freely as an Englishwoman at the time, part of the tiny English community that persisted there. I am indebted to a contributor from the Levantine Heritage people for this information who, hearing that I was interested in the English presence in Constantinople during the war, contacted me to let me know that Miss Whitaker was his great-aunt Eveline Whitaker.  She was adopted by Alice and Edgar Whitaker (he was the publisher of the Levant Herald newspaper in Constantinople). So there was an English community in Pera, a member of which presumably helped my GD.

 

Soldiers at  Waterfront: For my GD to be surprised at the presence of the soldiers at the waterfront it had to happen before General Wilson arrived on Nov 13th. I was thrilled to locate this set of photos PoWs meet General Wilson . Looks like they are all wearing the Dutch issue khaki, and someone has organised the guard of honour. There couldn't be any surprises on this date so my GD had to find the soldiers earlier. The answer is probably this arrival Surrender of Constantinople on Nov 10th, described by G. Ward-Price. As he describes it himself they are 'heralds' of the main fleet. That would provide 'surprise' soldiers at a waterfront. There was also the arrival of four British officers on the Turkish torpedo-boat ‘Basra’ on 7th November. They were taken to Pera Palace Hotel and Tokatlıyan Hotel, where 80 rooms were rented for coming Entente personal. I assume one of these two parties organised the guard of honour.

 

Returning home from Constantinople: Thanks to Charlie's hint earlier in this thread I was able to establish that the SS Katoomba took PoWs from Constantinople to Salonica, then to Taranto, Calais, Dover, arriving in England on Dec 8th. This is the date that my GD crossed then channel so it seems certain that this is how he got home. The detail is this.

The Mediterranean Line of Communication (MLC) - a rail link established during the war to take troops back and forward to the theatre in the East. The overland route avoided the threat of German submarines. There is good detail of the route in Forces Postal History 300 including a map on P180. Elsewhere on the GWF I have seen the same maps from the Official History of the Medical Services, but I liked the detail in the text here more.

 

Anyway, I think he was initially helped by an Englishman, then taken over by the Dutch, kitted out in khaki, sees soldiers on the front at either 7th or 10th Nov, and comes home on the SS Katoomba followed by the train along the MLC route. Please note that while the map shows Cherbourg as the French channel port others were frequently used, often deviating after St Germain au Mont D'Or which is near Lyon.

 

 

 

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Thanks for generously providing the complete account Maureene, it makes fascinating reading. Very good of you to spare the time. It does make you wonder how any of these men survived the experience. I'm sure I wouldn't have done.

 

For me, the most surprising revelation from this source and one or two others is how early the prisoners were released, it must have been a surprise to the prisoners too after the daily threats they endured on the lines of  'After the war we will keep you as slaves..' etc.

 

i'd better sign off and continue this tomorrow, youngest daughter is on the phone telling me she is engaged to be married!! Hold the page, as they say in the press....

 

Thanks

 

Pete

 

The excitement has died down a little now! I have been reading through the articles in order. Fascinating. I have definitely come across some of the anecdotes before but this version has more detail, I was particularly interested in the section where Beattie is transferred to Gelebek, which is where my GD was imprisoned (at least at the outset, the men were obviously moved about a fair bit). There is a lot of interesting detail there about food and working conditions, and finally a decent explanation of what the 'dugouts' were like. I wasn't clear before this article whether that simply meant a hole dug in the ground.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited by PHalsall
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Pete,

Very interesting reading. I had seen the photos of PoWs meeting General Wilson when I was researching the man in my post 54. Even more suprising was that I am sure I can spot him in one of the photos- on older soldier with a distinctive moustache. His grandson was very pleased ! His GF's diary/memoir was beautifully complimented by the photos. If you search around there are several more taken at this time, mostly seeming to come under Illustrated London News and its associates. IWM also have one or two. There's one of PoWs scrambling onto a boat- probably one of the earliest to leave?

 

I looked through the ICRC PoW repatriation lists on GrandeGuerre site and note that many of the later sheets do not appear on the index cards. However the digitised sheets seem to stop around 30th November which is frustrating because I suspect there are more sheets for the November period as well as early December (for the man I'm researching). I did not spot your GF but easy to miss a list. The dates I mention are UK arrival hence of interest to you, perhaps.

 

Charlie

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Charlie,

I am very jealous of the fact that your man has left a diary, that must be tremendously interesting. No such luck with my GF!

I have been having another look at the Illustrated London News and associated publications. Not much luck yet, but I think partly because the Illustrated First World War website isn't working very well this weekend, seems to be failing to find anything from 1917-18. I did come across this one Former prisoners of war elsewhere which I don't think I've seen before and so included it in case you are interested. I do like the sound of the image of former PoWs scambling onto a boat so I'll keep searching for that one.

Thanks for looking for my GF on the grandeguerre lists, that's my next task...

 

Cheers

 

Pete

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Charlie,

 

That's a fabulous photo, thanks for sending the link. Its so evocative of the moment, finally leaving Turkey to set off home. There are a few other interesting things going on there as well. I imagine the steamer is going to take them offshore to meet the SS Katoomba, which as you know is the ship that will take them to Salonika then Taranto. Nice also to see they all have a kit bag, presumably provided by the Dutch Legation and I guess containing bedding, shaving materials and the like, after all, they had nothing when they left the PoW camps. The Indians are interesting in that I understood that they were mostly sent to camps to the east of the Taurus mountains in the Ras-El-Ain area. They have come a long way if its the same men! On a much smaller scale, I quite like the fact that in many of these photos you see the same landmarks, the railings, the tram lines (they were obviously lined up along one of the those in the guard of honour photo), it links the pictures together as a set, all taken at the same happy occasion.

 

Cheers,

 

Pete

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That's a good point, and maybe I'll spot my GD in one of them, after all there are only about 200 involved as far as I am aware so he must be in there somewhere!

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Pete,

I've sent you a bit of background info which I hope you find useful.  It doesn't follow your GF's journey perhaps.

 

The 'Embassy' is clearly the Dutch Legation. Interesting that your post 25 includes the following:

 Prisoners at San Stefano simply walked out of their camp and into the offices of the Dutch legation, where they were welcomed with money, food and comforts parcels, and accommodated in a hotel.

 

Do we know if the Katoomba sailed from Constantinople on 17th Nov or was it another ship?

 

Note that this ship only stopped for 4 hours at Salonika. I do not have a date.

 

Charlie

 

 

 

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No answer to your question but just some backgroundinfo:

 

The Dutch Legation ("Palais de Hollande" or "Hollanda Konsolosluğu") in Constantinople/Istanbul (Building has been the Dutch Legation/consulate since 1714)

palais-de-hollande.jpg.e050edccedf44d8fd196aa89d8da4bda.jpg

 

The Dutch Envoy at the time, representing Great Britain, USA, France, Russia, Roumania, and Bulgaria: The Hon.  P.J.F.M. van der Does de Willebois

does.jpg.2b83079b977ddee0a8485dca7f472e07.jpg

who was married to a German lady (who was staunchly German, and was known to shout from the steps of the legation “We have won again!” after yet another German victory – in the earlier days of the War ofcourse....- )

Through his marriage he had a good understanding with the German envoy (He would give the German envoy’s daughters shelter in his own house should Constantinople fall, and he used the German diplomatic post to send messages to the office in Jeruzalem e,g,) 

British admiral Gough Calthorpe paid him a visit on 14th November 1918 to thank him for the excellent work he had done protecting British interests throughout the war.

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11 hours ago, JWK said:

thank him for the excellent work he had done protecting British interests

Every little bit is interesting to see. In the UK FO files there is correspondence with Dutch legation but not always easy to find. Do you know if there are Dutch archives covering this 1917/1918/1919 period in Constantinople ? And if so are they on-line ?

 

Charlie

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16 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Do you know if there are Dutch archives covering this 1917/1918/1919 period in Constantinople ? And if so are they on-line ?

 

The archive of the Dutch Legation is kept in the National Archives, they're not online and there's a finding aid but it's all in Dutch. (PDF file here )

Looks like 2.05.94.814 to 827 is where maybe something about the POW's is to be found (It's the section "French, English and Russian protection")

 

 

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Thanks. My Dutch is non-existant but I shall look through this for some key words and then perhaps try google translate or post here for help?

12 minutes ago, JWK said:

they're not online

That is not entirely suprising.

 

Charlie

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Charlie,

 

Regarding Katoomba sailing times and date at Salonica.

 

I went back to a source I had that provided the date of arrival at Taranto. Its an account of Aussie Bugler Fred Ashton       Fred Ashton Katoomba

Interesting to note that he was also from San Stefano.

He confirms again the story of marching out of the camp, but also that the Katoomba set sail on 16th Nov, got to Taranto on 25th (seems a long time)

In the full version of his statement F Ashton Repatriation St. He goes on to say that he got to Dover on 8th Dec, so seems to be the same group of men.

 

Regarding the discrepancy in departure dates of the Katoomba. The photo of these men scrambling to get on a boat, the boat looks like a smaller vessel than the Katoomba. Perhaps the Katoomba is anchored out at sea and a smaller vessel takes the men out there? In which case it could be that they leave the quay to get to the Katoomba on 16th, then it sets out on 17th? Hence different men give different dates? I'm obviously unsure on this one, but overll most accounts seem to say 16th....

 

Pete

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JWK,

 

That's a fascinating anecdote, I particularly like the role of his wife!

 

There is quite a history in my family, of being aided by the Dutch during wars. In addition to my grandfather discussed here, I had an uncle who was WIA in Holland in WW2. Left behind on the battlefield he was rescued by a Dutch family and hidden in a farmhouse, at one point hidden in a cupboard under a sink, passing in and out of consciousness. He kept in touch with them for some years after the War. That's my next project. Well done the Dutch!

 

Pete

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Got that anecodote from here  https://www.wereldoorlog1418.nl/diplomatieke-belangenbehartiging/

Having to repesent Great-Britain, France, USA, Russia etc sure was one heck of a job. France didn't pay enough for the "upkeep" of their nationals, and when thre Russian Empire collapsed, and Constantinople was inundated with Tsarist Russians, the Bolsjewiks couldn't care less what ever happened to those Tsarists, and subsequently did not pay a ruble.

 

As regards WW2:

There are many similar stories. My grandparents had people hiding on the farm (while they had German officers billeted in their house...).

 

And then there's Netherlands American cemetery Margraten, where every single one of the 10,000 or so graves has been adopted by the local population since 1945.

Fascinating story.   https://www.adoptiegraven-margraten.nl/en/general-information/our-history/

 

And the Faces of Margraten initiative (started by, then, 16yr old Sebastiaan Vonk)

 

https://www.degezichtenvanmargraten.nl/index.php/en-US/news

 

 

Edited by JWK
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After this brief detour to WW2:

 

Has the all-knowing and ever-correct (ummm.....:ph34r:) Wikipedia been quoted yet? Apologies if it has, but I can't seem to recall any mention of it in this thread.

In the entry for the SS Columbia (1913) :

 

Quote

SS Columbia was a coal (later, oil) powered steam ship which began service under the name Katoomba in 1913 as an Australian interstate passenger liner serving a Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and West Australia route.

.......

The British government requisitioned Katoomba in May 1918 to transport United States troops to Britain and made two trans Atlantic crossings before transfer to the Mediterranean. She was in Salonika on 11 November at the armistice and three days later left Constantinople transporting more than 2,000 troops of the Essex and Middlesex Regiments, and twenty-six of the surviving prisoners that had been taken at the siege of Kut. In six Black Sea trips, as the first British troopship to pass through the Dardanelles since the war's start, Katoomba landed 14,000 troops and returned with repatriated Turks.

 

katoomba.jpg.d1b921f99d219d8412feea1004909d9d.jpg

 

 

Edited by JWK
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Hi JWK,

 

Yes, I've seen that, it puzzled me at first and I have come to realise that there is a 'typo' at play here. The troops of the Essex and Middlesex regiments are being taken to Constantinople at this date. I think it should read 'three days later left for Constantinople'. One word missing and the whole message is in error. As it goes on to say, it landed 14,000 troops then returned with the POWs - ie returned to Salonica.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

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14 hours ago, PHalsall said:

there is a 'typo' at play here

I think you are right Pete. Will have to look at the source. Charlie

 

Edit. Don't know what the 26 PoWs refers to ?

 

Edit- seems to come from AWM magazine Wartime Issue44 but the particular article isn't on line.

Edited by charlie962
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2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

I think you are right Pete. Will have to look at the source. Charlie

 

Edit. Don't know what the 26 PoWs refers to ?

 

Edit- seems to come from AWM magazine Wartime Issue44 but the particular article isn't on line.

 

Via the Waybackmachine ( Archive.org ), the article in AWM magazine Wartime Issue44 , snapshot of January 5th 2015:


 

Quote

 

Wartime 44 - Briefing (page 6)

First through

On 25 April 1915, just as the ANZACs were landing on Gallipoli, the Australian submarine AE2 created history by becoming the first submarine to penetrate the Straits of the Dardanelles. Four years later, another Australian vessel, the coastal liner SS Katoomba, became the first British troopship to pass through the Dardanelles since the outbreak of the war.

During the war merchant vessels were pressed into service to ferry troops or supplies to the main theatres of war. Katoomba’s war started late, when it was requisitioned by the British government in 1918 to convey American troops to Britain. Despite the dangers posed by German submarines, Katoomba successfully completed two Atlantic crossings before being sent to the Mediterranean, where the submarine threat was so great that ships’ masters were ordered to fire upon any vessel showing a light.

Katoomba was at Salonika on 11 November for the armistice celebrations. Three days later, it left for Constantinople carrying more than 2,000 troops of the Essex and Middlesex Regiments. It was present for the official landing of Admiral Seymour, there to take over the city for the allies. For Captain E. Moodie-Heddle, Katoomba’s master, however, “a far more pathetic sight” was “the parade of the remnants of the released men from Kut”, 26 of whom were afterwards embarked on the Katoomba. They were in “a dejected and emaciated condition, due to long confinement and heart-breaking treatment by the Turks”.

The ship eventually made six trips to the Black Sea, landing 14,000 troops and repatriating large numbers of Turks. Following a voyage to Bombay in April 1919, the ship sailed for Britain. Katoomba finally returned to Australia in August, where it was refitted and returned to its owner, McIlwraith, McEacharn’s Line Pty Ltd.

Moodie-Heddle’s log records that during their time in the Mediterranean they had sighted four floating mines, “two of which were accounted for by our gunfire, and we thus won the Admiralty’s award of £10 – £5 for each mine”. Long after that award, the distinction of being first through the infamous Dardanelles at war’s end abides, if only as a small footnote to history.

 

 

Whoever wrote that Wikipedia page clearly had no clue whatsoever what this was all about.

 

Edited by JWK
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I think you are absolutely right JWK, the Wikipedia entry made no sense at all.

 

In the meantime I have been fortunate in locating someone whose Grandfather was a Wireless Operator on the Katoomba at the time and left extensive memoirs behind. He has been kind enough to provide me with a copy. Its a very interesting read in its own right, but also sorts all the dates and such like out for us.

Ill send you each a copy.

 

Pete

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