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Remembered Today:

Repatriation of Turkish PoW


PHalsall

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Apologies for being a complete idiot... stayed up too late reading the John H Wheat narrative - absolutely fascinating, especially the escape attempts, though distressing to hear about the lack of shelter and food for men at Gelebek... anyway, fatigue made my brain numb. Of course there is no mismatch in dates for the Katoomba story, London is a modest train ride from Dover, so both dates are valid. PoWs could arrive at both destinations on the same day.

 

The Katoomba journey including the final leg by train and date of arrival at Dover match perfectly with an account of James Irwin getting to Constantinople in good time and coming home that way. It doesn't prove it, but it is plausible. The Joseph O'Neill story is a little harder to match up as though he arrives at Dover on the same date his record, shown above, seems to indicate (top right) that he has been to Cairo first?

 

Anyway, well done Charlie for pointing me that way.

 

Unfortunately, Joseph O'Neill dies in 1937 aged 45 as a result of malaria and long term effects of malnutrition - detailed in the book 'Captured Anzacs'.

 

 

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On 10/07/2018 at 23:30, PHalsall said:

led me to this thesis

Pete,

I am being denied access to that thesis ?

 

Edit-  But if I go via google then I can download the thesis as a PDF, so OK

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie962
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On 11/07/2018 at 01:25, PHalsall said:

his record, shown above, seems to indicate (top right) that he has been to Cairo first

I suspect 'Cairo' means the Record Centre for the  Exped Force and doesn't mean he went there.

Charlie

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Thanks Charlie, I was hoping that was the answer! I think I can be reasonably confident now that he gets to Constantinople and leaves on the Katoomba. Its the only explanation that fits all the evidence including the key date of arriving in England on 8th Dec.

 

Thanks once again for all your help, I don't think I would have got that last piece of the jigsaw on my own!

 

Pete

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Pete

Reading the Ariotti thesis you spotted, she mentions another by Jenefer Lawless 'Kizmet, The Fate of the Gallipoli PoWs' (2015). Apparently includes a review of the different PoW camps. I can't find an online copy of thesis but there does appear to be a book available at USD 57.00 !

 

Have you seen anything online ?

 

Charlie

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A bit late to the party here, and I can't help with the PoW stuff, but he appears to have been Mentioned in Despatches.

This is from the Birkenhead News dated 5th February 1916.

(Pete : I have a little bit more trivial info about him. Send me a PM with your e-mail address and I will send it on to you.

 

BillyH.

gwf 5.2.16.jpg

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Blimey Billy, that's a find! Thanks very much. PM on its way...

 

Charlie, thanks again. Not yet found an online version of Jennifer Lawless' book. As you say, not cheap either! Mind you, I was also interested in 

LUSHINGTON, Reginald Francis A Prisoner with the Turks, 1915-1918
...until I found a copy at USD9,000!!
Shame my GD didn't write a book while he was there...

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Last guestion on this I promise!

This is a little detail on the route home, but significant to me as youwill see. 

James Irwin 'escapes' on the roofs of trains from gelebek in the direction of constantinople and on arrival sees some soldiers at a waterfront, this is oral history in the family, he approaches them and when he finds they are british sits at the side of the road and cries his heart out, as you can imagine.

This is the question, i have taken this to be constantinople proper, but the terminus of the railway seems to be skutari, which is adjacent to the waterfront. Inclined to beleive that it is here that he is rescued.

can anyone confirm that in november 1918, a train from the east/ gelebek would have to stop here and passengers switch to a second train across the bosphorus to constantinople, or would the train go straight across, and also, would there be british tropps on the eastern bank of the bosphorous at this time. Might be a small point, but very significant to our family to decide where it is that he is 'safe'. I am trying to decide where he has got iff the train and encountered friendly troops at a waterfront.

 

thanks again,

 

pete

 

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Pete

That most reliable source (?) wiki says French troops first entered Constantinople 12/11/18 and British the next day.  But of course local prisoners may well have taken advantage of freedom after the 30th Oct Armistice ?

 

Charlie

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Thanks once again charlie.

 

Putting that date of 13th Nov with these dates for the Australians from Newcombes force (australians having good data), 

 

2309 John McPerson arrives Alexandria on Nov 6th then shipped to Australia on Nov 15th.

2167 Henry Thorneycroft arrives Alexandria on Nov 21st then off to Australia on 25th Dec.

2148 Joseph O'Neill records indicate that he arrives in Dover on Dec 9th, leaves for Australia on 3rd May 1919.

 

McPherson was ill and had been sent ahead to Smyrna for treatment and early exchange so he is atypical. 

The Ariotti thesis (earlier in thread), tells us that men in the taurus camps were collected and taken by train to Afion then on to smyrna. Thorneycroft is perhaps the typical example suggesting men left these camps something like 17-19th of Nov, certainly no later. 

James doesnt get to constantinople before the british troops ( very certain about that from oral history ), so he must arrive there somewhere around 14-17th nov. Looks like he was a bit rash! 

 

A nice touch would be if I could establish the train detail. If skutari was a proper terminal i imagine he would get off there and go outside to see where he is and decide what to do, at that point spotting british troops at the waterfront. He obviously felt at risk of discovery while on the train so probably inclined to avoid an additional one if possible. On the other hand, if its a through train he probably carries on to constantinople. A small difference, but with some resonance to the family.

 

cheers

 

Pete

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Pete

Somehow need to find another personal account of the time.

 

Irwin just got his timing wrong in the 'escape' but I can see how he was taking control rather than just waiting to see what happened. That is part of what makes a survivor. Do keep digging.

 

Charlie

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Thanks for the encouragement Charlie. 

 

Good idea to look for other stories. I think i'll have another look at joseph oneill, he is the aussie who came back to england on the same date, calais / dover as my GD. It might well be just a coincidence, but it could be that they travelled together, no way of being sure of course but its at least a lead! O'neill was ill so there is a possibility he was 'jumping the gun' so to speak to get him to medical care. There has always been a suggestion in the oral history that he was with a companion. 

 

Fingers crossed!

 

Pete

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Closer.

 

completed a little more research.

 

There was no rail link across the bosphorus in 1918. A ferry was the connection between constantinople and Haidar Pasha on the Eastern side. The train from kelebek had to stop here, it was the end of the line. The station is very grand building, famous in the east, and unusually for a railway station, built on reclaimed land and so surrounded on three sides by water. Works perfectly with the family narrative of seeing soldiers at a waterfront etc. If he gets off the train here he is faced by waterfront from any exit he takes. Also neat is that adjacent to the station is a huge dump of ammunition and other military hardware that has been accumulating here as the poor rail connection to the front in palestine / mesopotamia is effectively a bottleneck. Makes good sense that the british on arrival in constantinople would despatch troops here for that reason. So he emerges from this station and sees british troops.

 

Nice perspective about doing something about his predicament illustrates an attribute of a survivor, I like that, thanks.

 

Pete

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Article about the explosion at the Haidarpasha/Haydarpasha Railway station on Sept. 6, 1917 when the armoury exploded. The station building became a shell and the area was bombed from the air twice in 1918 by the British to add to the destruction.

The station building and all ancillary buildings were severely damaged and were effectively out of order for the rest of the war. 

The event was censored in the local press and it had a serious effect on the resupply on the hard pressed Ottoman troops fighting the British and Arab irregulars in the Middle East.

http://www.levantineheritage.com/haidarpasha-explosion.html

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

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Mate,

 

The loss of important German aircraft caused a delay in the arrival of this Jasta (Sqn) to Palestine.

 

Jasta 304 (Bavarian) (5x AEG C4) 5x planes lost in fire at Haydarpascha rail station

 

Cheers

 

S.B

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Oops.

 

Thanks again for the info everyone. Much appreciated. Those photographs on the levantine heritage site are incredible, hadnt seen those before.

 

Throws my assumptions into disarray to a large extent. Does anyone know whether trains could get as far as this in nov 1918, or did the nearest functional section of rail start at Konya or similar location. He seems to have got to a waterfront in the constantinople area somehow? 

 

Cheers

 

Pete

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I had seen the reports on HaidarPasha station but I did get the impression that although the rebuild was after the war that there was further use of the line in 1918. Cannot quote a specific source. Charlie

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My previous, somewhat downbeat post was written while stranded in Malaga airport with a very long wait following a flight cancellation...

 

Now I have cheered up and home I agree that although the building was ruined I am sure the Germans / Turks would have ensured that the track was back in use given the importance attached to having this rail link working ASAP in the last year of the war. The Levantine pages supplied by Maureene suggest the same - The station building and all ancillary buildings were severely damaged and were effectively out of order for the rest of the war. 

It indicates that the buildings were riuned but doesnt say that the track / line itself was never renewed.

 

Taking Charlie's advice to search for other stories / personal accounts, I discovered the attached document. You are probably all familiar with it, a German conscript's account of Constantinople in 1918. Beautifully written and detailed, goes all the way to his repatriation via Odessa. A fair amount of military information from the German perspective as well. Includes an account of Townshend (Kut) appearing in Constantinople, and 'Former British prisoners of war filling the streets of Gospolis'. Its well worth a read if anyone is interested in this period and place. No idea where Gospolis is, by the way, so any suggestions welcome? Google has never heard of it...

 

Cheers

 

Pete

galle_istanbul.pdf

Edited by PHalsall
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15 hours ago, PHalsall said:

No idea where Gospolis is

The only reference is in the same account, page 33 footnote 52 saying Gospolis is Istanbul. Perhaps it was a German nickname for the place ?

Charlie

 

Perhaps @trajan  can help ?

 

Edited by charlie962
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Mate,

 

If you go to the "Axis History" webb site and to the Forum there look for "The End of the Ottoman Empire" part and you will find many discussions there.

 

IF you enter some details you will see if we have discussed this some where.

 

You may notice I posted some thing on your question but as yet no answer, sorry.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

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Thanks Steve, that was very thoughtful. Very few references deal directly with the station and aftermath, but I found the following extract interesting. If there are 10,000 german/ottoman soldiers based there in Nov 1918 it at least suggests that the location was still being used as a major base for men and materials and there would seem little point in doing so if there was no active rail link to take them to the East.

 

Tosun Saral

Turkish Col. Hans Guhr say in his book that p.235 
"On Nov.4th 1918 Feldmarshal Liman Pasha arrived with his doughters and adjutants at Haydarpasha Railway Station. I went to wellcome him with General von Lenthe and Maj.Lynker.... Each day 800 or 1000 German soldiers were arriving to Istanbul from various parts of Turkey. On Nov. 11st 1918 there were already 730 German officers and 9600 men in the camps of Haydarpasha and Moda. With this men a new "Reinforced Asian Corps" was founded under command of Lt.Col. Baron von Hammarstein who was commander of 146th German Inf. Reg
." 
 

Regarding the other PoWs, It seems that the men who stayed in the camps in the Taurus mountains left by train to Afyon then on to Smyrna, and that Smyrna was the main point of departure for PoWs to Alexandria. Many men just made their own way to Constantinople, especially from camps nearer than these. I suppose the capital is the obvious place to head for. I've not read of any other PoWs who travelled as far as Gelebek - Constantinople, but there may well have been others I suppose.

 

Be interesting to see if there are any responses that provide extra detail. Fingers crossed.

 

Charlie: Gospolis. Should have spotted that footnote myself!

 'polis' is Greek for a place where people live, amongst other interpretations. Not sure where 'Gos' comes from, cant see a root for that in Turkish, Greek, or German, but then I'm no linguist. Not to worry, its pretty clear that PoWs were turning up in Constantinople in numbers at this time.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

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288798434_Kutgalebek.JPG.dfab546b680c9a8b972d71575c501ac5.JPG

 

Thanks Charlie, I was slow to locate this one, but what a fascinating account when I got there! Interesting to see the importance the prisoners placed on medical care. No surprise really. The food supply described here also seems a little more positive than some other accounts I had read, but I suppose that varied a lot from camp to camp. The real eye-opener was the revelation that prisoners seem to have all left the Taurus camps by October 14th 2018, a couple of weeks before the armistice! I had assumed that other than those who were exchanged due to illness they stayed until at least the 30th. 

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited by PHalsall
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I was looking earlier at a photo of a gunner sgt who was sitting in a smart civilian suit and cap, looking very thin. He has signed and dated it Constantinople 25/10/18. Obviously a free man. I dont know his 1918 camp, only that he was at AKH early 1917; he was bound to have moved since. He was one of those taken at Kut 1916.

 

Charlie

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