Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Official History Order of Battle, Battle of Albert (21 August 1918)?


steve fuller

Recommended Posts

Hi, 

 

LLT (http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/battles-of-the-western-front-in-france-and-flanders/the-second-battles-of-the-somme-1918/) lists the Order of Battle - can anyone with the history confirm if it is taken from there please?

 

(Edit; sorry, looking at the IV Corps line up specifically)

 

Many thanks

Steve

Edited by steve fuller
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure it actually says the Order of Battle is from the Official History, it appears to be, and where better to find it. The Map certainly is from the OH, Sketch 19. I think the Order of Battle you want is on page 522.

 

Do you think the OOB is incorrect?

 

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best checking yourself but OH  has 8th Aug 1918

 

Third Army

(General The Hon. Sir Julian Byng)
IV. Corps (Lieut-General Sir G M Harper)
37th Division (63, 111, 112).
42nd Division (125, 126, 127).
62nd Division (185, 186, 187).
63rd Division (188, 189, 190) to XVII. Corps 31st August.
5th Division (13, 15, 95) from XI. Corps 13th August.

 

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Mike.

 

I've never been certain, just doesn't sit quite right really - always seemed to me that IV Corps should be in the Second Bapaume, not Albert. 

 

Their operations were (summarised):

  • 21 August; 37th Division (north), New Zealanders (south), started around Buquoy and advanced to first objective.
  • 63rd Division advanced through 37th, 5th Division advanced through New Zealanders.
  • 63rd held up in front of Achiet le Petit, 5th Division unaware of this (due to fog and meeting the main German line of resistance). 15th Brigade (5th Division) advance onto the railway line ridge north of Irles and are hit in the flank and from behind by strong German counter attack which throws them off the ridge.
  • Line consolidated facing the ridge, stays there 22 August.
  • 23 August; assault renewed and ridge taken
  • Then onto Bapaume
  • 63rd Division operate around Miraumont for days afterwards
  • 5th Division around Bapaume, both advancing east until they hit the Hindenburg Line

This is all east and north-east of Bapaume, not Albert.

It's always seemed to me that IV Corps units were at Second Bapaume, not Albert?

Any thoughts welcomed!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Skipman said:

Best checking yourself but OH  has 8th Aug 1918

 

Third Army

(General The Hon. Sir Julian Byng)
IV. Corps (Lieut-General Sir G M Harper)
37th Division (63, 111, 112).
42nd Division (125, 126, 127).
62nd Division (185, 186, 187).
63rd Division (188, 189, 190) to XVII. Corps 31st August.
5th Division (13, 15, 95) from XI. Corps 13th August.

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike; can't find my OH unfortunately, so it's either buried in a box or have loaned it and forgotten :/ 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Haven't studied in detail but see what you mean. The 37th Division Diary 12/8/1918 mentions Bucquoy and Ablainzevelle which are north of the Ancre.

 

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the 42nd Division, they were west, southwest, then south of Bapaume. Going through Puisieux, Miramount, Pys, Le Barque, Thilloy, Ligny Thilloy to Riencourt at the end of August.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Mike, Keith.

 

Hopefully someone with the history will drop in and verify.

 

It's for a talk and website article, so I'm reluctant to state its Second Bapaume if OH says otherwise and would prefer to justify it with a footnote beforehand rather than attract a long discussion! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Were they not simply involved in both, and doesn't the Order of Battle  on the Long Long Trail detail that?

 

25/8/1918 Third Army Orders for 25th August, issued 7.53 p.m. on 24th August. " The IV. Corp was to advance through Bapaume to the line Riencourt-lès-Bapaume-Beugnâtre; there, as it was nearer the Hindenburg Line (which passed north-westwards by Bullecourt and Croisilles) than the V. Corps, it was to re-organize in depth and patrol all roads to the east. " (p 266 vol 4, 1918)

 

26/8/1918 Third Army Orders for 26th August " The three corps on the right were to continue their advance eastwards, whilst the left corps, inclined south-eastwards in conjunction with the right of the First Army " . .... " The IV. Corps was to capture Bapaume and Favreuil and the reorganize in depth with advanced guards ready for a further advance. " (p 298 vol 4, 1918)

 

27/8/1918 Third Army Orders for 27th August " The orders issued to the Third Army simply entailed a continuance of the movement of the V., IV. and VI. Corps eastwards, and of the XVII. Corps, on their left, south-eastwards astride the Hindenburg position in co-operation with the Canadian Corps of the First Army. " (p 323 vol 4, 1918)

 

2/9/1918 Third Army Orders for 2nd September, issued on 31st August (b) " The IV. Corps will capture Haplincourt and Beugny and will push forward vigorously towards Ytres and Vélu [the former on the Canal du Nord]. " (p 403 vol 4, 1918)

 

2/9/1918 Beugny and Delsaux Farm (south of it) and the low ridge beyond them, and the 42nd on the right, to capture Villers au Flos, the New Zealand Division in the centre, conforming to their advance, with exploitation if possible " (p 409 vol 4, 1918)

 

3/9/1918 The IV. Corps had intended to do no more on the 3rd than capture Beugny, which the 5th Division had surrounded on three sides, and to consolidate its gains. When Beugny was attacked at 5.20 a.m. it was found to be evacuated, and at 7.30 a.m. patrols of the 2nd New Zealand and 127th Brigades reported Haplincourt and Barastre similarly empty. Lt-Gen Harper therefore, at 8.30 a.m. issued orders for the line of the railway Ytres-Bertincourt-Vélu to be made good, with advanced troops on the line of the canal, (p 419) which on the front of the 42nd and New Zealand Divisions ran in a tunnel. The Germans had abandoned defence of the canal south of Havrincourt, where it bends to the east, and had gone back to the Hindenburg position; so the advance of the 5th Division, led by the 15th Brigade, was made without any opposition to beyond the railway. At night it was relieved by the 37th Division. " (p 420 vol 4, 1918)

 

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steve,

 

Have pm'd you IV Corps diary, Apps & Maps.

 

Andy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Andy, I'll get use out of them!

 

Thanks Mike; I have always just accepted it as such and put any doubts to the back, but given that theirs was a continuous flow and east of Bapaume rather than in the Albert region, it's just never really sat right with me. Maybe I'm too hung up on the detail and trying to get it right :unsure:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have found that the Official History is vital for giving a clear picture of the whole thing, in a way that battalion, brigade and divisional diaries do not (without great study), Edmonds was a genius at saying a great deal in a very few words. Although it appears to have its faults, the OH is a magnificent work, and absolutely vital to the understanding of the large battles.

 

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

True enough Mike. Looking like I really need to go hunting in the loft for the volume in question ... fun and frolics to be had up there :mellow:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, steve fuller said:

True enough Mike. Looking like I really need to go hunting in the loft for the volume in question ... fun and frolics to be had up there :mellow:

 

The OH will be the only thing up there that you need. Skip the rest, I did recently. An empty loft is a thing of beauty.

 

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Skipman said:

An empty loft is a thing of beauty.

lol! Can't argue with that. Uncluttered and open spaces works for me every time

Link to comment
Share on other sites

E A James' A Record of the Battles and Engagements of the British Armies in France and Flanders Has the following in IV Corps (Third Army) from 21 to 23 August 1918:

5th, 37th, 42nd, 63rd and New Zealand Divisions.

 

This book is not strictly a part of the Official History but it was compiled from official sources.

 

Ron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

E A James' A Record of the Battles and Engagements of the British Armies in France and Flanders Has the following in IV Corps (Third Army) from 21 to 23 August 1918:

5th, 37th, 42nd, 63rd and New Zealand Divisions.

 

This book is not strictly a part of the Official History but it was compiled from official sources.

 

Ron

Thanks Ron - is this listed as the Battle of Albert, or within the Second Battle of Bapaume (or just Second Somme 1918)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Skipman said:

I have found that the Official History is vital for giving a clear picture of the whole thing, in a way that battalion, brigade and divisional diaries do not (without great study), Edmonds was a genius at saying a great deal in a very few words. Although it appears to have its faults, the OH is a magnificent work, and absolutely vital to the understanding of the large battles.

 

Mike

Hmmm,

Mike, not sure that I agree 100% with you. I have found some howlers in the OH which contradicts, Army, Corps, Division, Brigade and Battalion Diaries and relied quite heavily at times on correspondence with someone some 30 years after events. Which makes it a secondary source.

Agreed re. outline of some of the larger battles but I do treat them as secondary sources and check everything they say. There are vast amounts of correspondence with Becke, Edmonds etc. in the CAB files dating nearly up to the dates the OH were published which was many years after events. Whereas the diaries were written at the time or shortly afterwards. Some Ops summaries I have seen at all levels do differ somewhat with OH versions and there are criticisms re. any agenda Edmonds might have had.

 

Andy

 

Edited by stiletto_33853
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, stiletto_33853 said:

 I have found some howlers in the OH which contradicts, Army, Corps, Division, Brigade and Battalion Diaries and relied quite heavily at times on correspondence with someone some 30 years after events. Which makes it a secondary source.

Andy

 

 

That's fair enough Andy. There my also have been occasions when Edmonds saw through attempts by Army/Corps/Regiment/Divisional/Brigade or Battalion 'spin'?

 

As always it's trying to get the truth that is so difficult.

 

Many here have read much more deeply than I, but my point really was that reading the OH made it clearer (to me at least) than any other document, how and why a battle actually took place, and the place of my solitary soldier's  (66 actually) part  in it all.

 

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike, agreed there re. the "spin" be it at whatever level, to be replaced by possible spin later on by the OH. As you say trying to get to the truth sometimes can be exasperating and something I am trying to get to the bottom of presently in one such area.

 

Steve, sent you copies of these, from Becke's OOB Part 4, The Army Council, GHQ's, Armies & Corps.

 

Andy

img108.jpg

img109.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer - Monday 28 April 1930

 

Four hundred members of the Old Comrades' Association of the 4th Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment attended the annual dinner in the Park Street Barracks, Hull, on Saturday night. Colonel Arthur Easton was the chair, and was supported by Colonel W. T. Wilkinson, Colonel B. M. R. Sharp, Colonel T. J. Morrill, and Colonel Edgar Laverack. Colonel Wilkinson, in proposing the toast of the Association, said some of the books written about the war made him angry, for they were full of obscenity and squalor, and did not any way portray the normal life of the splendid men who were in France. Histories of the war were interesting, but when thought the wonderful show their Battalion put the Ypres Salient, of the full share they took in the ghastly fighting, and the sacrifice made, he was disappointed to read in Part III. of the Official History that the only mention of them was footnote, according which they were in rest billets. (Laughter), had promised a correction in Part V.

 

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, steve fuller said:

Thanks Ron - is this listed as the Battle of Albert, or within the Second Battle of Bapaume (or just Second Somme 1918)?

Battle of Albert, separate from and preceding the Second Battle of Bapaume, both being within the Second Battles of the Somme 1918. This is confirmed by the excerpts from Becke in stiletto's post 20.

 

Ron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the clarity one and all, Battle of Albert it is then!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...