Centenary squandered

[clive_hughes]

On 03/07/2018 at 23:12, hazelclark said:

The only name I recognize is that of Hew Strachan. I live, however on the other side of the pond. Maybe that is simply a politically correct bunch of personalities?  On the surface, I wonder what Murrison or the Dean of Salisbury might offer the group to name but two.

Hazel C

The Dean of Salisbury has recently become the Bishop of Llandaff in south Wales.

[hazelclark]

On 04/07/2018 at 17:20, Medaler said:

 

 

 

Oh, and a personal connection to events is not a necessary requirement for studying and learning about the Great War. You don't have to be a Spaniard to learn Spanish.

 

Regards,

Mike

Of course not!  However, interest is a “necessary requirement”,  and I would argue that interest is sparked by exposure.  When my generation, and possibly that of my kids is gone, the only exposure to the subject, which for many is pretty uninteresting, will be through education.  Yes, there will always be a few individuals who will have sufficient interest to read about the War, but they will certainly be in the minority, and to think otherwise is putting your head in the sand. The kind of marketing required to keep the pot boiling isn’t an option and in any case wouldn’t have much impact.

 

Although I was born several years after the end of the second war, All the adults in my life had been involved in one or more of the wars and some told stories.  Others tried to block it all out. We were all affected in some way or another at that time.  We still received food parcels from relatives in Canada.

 

While I think that the Centenary commemorations were the right thing to do, it is because the war I s still meaningful to a lot of people.  In another 100 years commemorations will be merely a tourist attraction.   My mother was born on November 9th 1918.  She will be 100 this year. Her father lost his arm at 3rd Ypres, and her mother lost her youngest brother in the last weeks of the war.  She agrees with me. When I bought a poppy pin made with a shell and ground from Ypres she said, “I don’t know why they bother.  No one is interested now.” That didn’t stop my sister and a number of my friends buying poppies from the Tower display, but all were in remembrance of someone to whom they had some connection.

 

Hazel C.

 

 

14 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

The Dean of Salisbury has recently become the Bishop of Llandaff in south Wales.

I did use the term “politically correct”.  Perhaps I am being unkind.

H. C.

Edited 6 July , 2018 by hazelclark

[Medaler]

15 hours ago, hazelclark said:

Of course not!  However, interest is a “necessary requirement”,  and I would argue that interest is sparked by exposure.  When my generation, and possibly that of my kids is gone, the only exposure to the subject, which for many is pretty uninteresting, will be through education.  Yes, there will always be a few individuals who will have sufficient interest to read about the War, but they will certainly be in the minority, and to think otherwise is putting your head in the sand. The kind of marketing required to keep the pot boiling isn’t an option and in any case wouldn’t have much impact.

 

 

 

That is not quite the point that I was trying to make, but you raise some good stuff - particularly your very first sentence. There will always be exposure to the Great War because it was such a major event of the 20th Century that it still casts a shadow over parts of our lives today. Of course the only people who understand that will be those who have an interest in history, and we will always be a minority. Even at the height of the centenary hype those who took part in or attended any of the events were (and still are) a very small proportion of the population. Does that really matter? I don't think it does. My big problem with the centenary is that it has largely failed to improve understanding, with much emphasis placed on merely repeating and therefore reinforcing the same old trite cliches that created the perceptions of the war that some of us are still expending energy into trying to debunk. Like, for example, the whole "lost generation" codswallop.

 

In the two World Wars two of my family served, and neither of them left England. Does that matter? Perhaps it does, but only from the viewpoint that the study of the conflict is not restricted to those who had family members that were more directly affected. That of course brings me to the other point I was trying to make. That those who study the conflict from a genealogists viewpoint almost always never bother to look into "why". My own opinion is that, without considering that most important question, we are left with all that misery and suffering looking completely pointless. That in itself only goes to further perpetuate that particular myth. That is another area where the opportunity presented by the centenary has been lost. We may have engaged a few more of our population in the subject, but only at the most very basic level. Some of those will go on to develop a serious interest, but I don't suppose that it will be many. In short, we may have succeeded in making a few more people aware of the war, but I think we have largely failed in getting them to understand any legacy and importance of the conflict beyond its effect on their own immediate ancestors. We have encouraged them to forget what many of their ancestors would specifically have wanted them to remember, what the items were for which they had paid such a terrible price.

 

Regards,

Mike

[Andy Wade]

On 03/07/2018 at 23:44, loganshort said:

" When we are gone, the study of the wars will be entirely in the hands of academics.  Sad but true." 

Yes Hazelclark. I hope that by bringing history to a more local and even personal level (eg examining relatives who fought in the war) we can keep it in people's minds and the memory of those who died will live on. Battles and dates are certainly important to the general history but the ordinary soldier's life during and after the war can help make history real.

 

"after the war"

Yes. Can't wait for the 1921 census to be released. Just over three years away now and I recall the excitement over the 1911 census being made available. 2021 will give us details of where they went afterwards and who they were living with. Over and above what we might see in the Electoral/Burgess rolls of course.

[17107BM]

8 minutes ago, Andy Wade said:

 

"after the war"

Yes. Can't wait for the 1921 census to be released. Just over three years away now and I recall the excitement over the 1911 census being made available. 2021 will give us details of where they went afterwards and who they were living with. Over and above what we might see in the Electoral/Burgess rolls of course.

Here, Here!

 

There history and our's did not stop at the end of the war. This is a War that many will not let be Forgotten...

 

G.K.

[Andy Wade]

12 minutes ago, 17107BM said:

Here, Here!

 

There history and our's did not stop at the end of the war. This is a War that many will not let be Forgotten...

 

G.K.

 

I'm hoping there will be another surge of interest in 2021 with those researching the Great War. Genealogically that's a given anyway but I hope it will be seized upon by more than just those doing family research.

[loganshort]

On 06/07/2018 at 20:56, Andy Wade said:

 

"after the war"

Yes. Can't wait for the 1921 census to be released. Just over three years away now and I recall the excitement over the 1911 census being made available. 2021 will give us details of where they went afterwards and who they were living with. Over and above what we might see in the Electoral/Burgess rolls of course.

Thats great, thanks for the reminder Andy. It will be a very interesting Census because of the date.

[Knotty]

And here we go again, another ticket draw :-

 

This year, on the 100th anniversary of the Great War’s end, 10,000 members of the public are being invited to take part in a new moment of history – by marching past the Cenotaph to replicate that spontaneous outpouring of joy and relief.

 The Government is inviting members of the public to apply to take part in what has been named ‘A Nation’s Thank You – The People’s Procession’.

Applications are being invited at www.armistice100.org.uk and successful applicants will be randomly selected. Tickets will be allocated in pairs.........will take place as normal followed by the People’s Procession down Whitehall at around 12.30pm.

[sassenach]

38 minutes ago, Knotty said:

People’s Procession

Oh dear...

[Knotty]

 

8 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Oh dear...

 

My sentiments exactly 

[Guest]

   This from the  announcement  by the Culture Secretary, Jeremy Wright ( Don't blink, he might be gone):

 

The People’s Procession will provide an opportunity for those taking part to give thanks to all those who served in the First World War to secure the victory that helped shape the rights and privileges we enjoy today.

 

        A blatantly "political" slant.   Perhaps the "privilege" of being crippled or blinded for life?  Perhaps the "right" to be a widow or orphan?   Perhaps such wonders of "rights and privileges" as the Defence of the Realm Act and the other raft of restrictive powers that have never been stood down. Oh, and not forgetting conscription.

 

      For me, the Great War  is a wonder- at how little the British people protested then and subsequently at how easily and glibly the British system of government  assumed totalitarian powers and wasted the lives of a million men, and  destroyed the families of more than double that. All to protect itself, Not much to celebrate

Edited 13 July , 2018 by Guest

[Steven Broomfield]

Full ghastly details HERE

 

I suggest having a bottle of Scotch and a revolver to hand.

[jonbem]

How about all applying for the ballot, then if successful, don't turn up.

[jonbem]

28 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Full ghastly details HERE

 

I note from this....."Members of the public are invited to apply for tickets for the People’s Procession through a ballot. Ten thousand tickets are available and will be allocated in pairs. The procession will march down Whitehall where successful applicants will be able to lay wreaths at the Cenotaph."

If all 10000 lay an average 20"  diameter x 4" high wreath then that would see the volume approaching 57 elephants. Hope they bring a shovel. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, jonbem said:

I note from this....."Members of the public are invited to apply for tickets for the People’s Procession through a ballot. Ten thousand tickets are available and will be allocated in pairs. The procession will march down Whitehall where successful applicants will be able to lay wreaths at the Cenotaph."

If all 10000 lay an average 20"  diameter x 4" high wreath then that would see the volume approaching 57 elephants. Hope they bring a shovel. 

 

     So, it is a spontaneous and unscripted  demonstration of the real feelings of the British people then?  A stage-managed  media  manipulation Same old story-----  the right manipulation and the fools will follow.  Perhaps we should apply.....and carry large posters  of what Harold Gillies had to deal with in the way of damaged humans. But that point of view would not be allowed- Parliament is sitting and "political" demonstrations are not allowed. Except where the  blatantly "political" outcome fits the Whitehall agenda.

 

     (Mods-Doing my level best not to be political-but how does one  have a rant about something I regard as unduly "politicized" to an "acceptable" outcome???)

[hazelclark]

 Bloody hell! Shades of Red Square even!

 

As I said earlier, tourist fodder. I wonder if the guys are sitting up there wanting to pelt rotten 🍅. How can anyone imagine that such spectacles are in any way honouring the dead?

 

Mind you, it is not the only event that made me cringe.  They should just have quit after the Tower of London Poppies,which really was significant.

 

H.C

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

When reading all the foregoing, one feels that the able contributors seem to be somehow over-burdened with Hindsight. The participants did not realise that their, "Great", War would spawn the second, the "World" War - nor that the War would consume so many of not only them, but their Enemies (ironically now our friends)... 

Far from being "donkeys", I get the impression that they were extremely decent-minded men, oftentimes with the added advantage of an excellent education and well aware of failings of Command.

My grandfather (MC, 1918), was overage for his rank, and was married with children, yet volunteered to go Overseas with the AIF (wounded). My father (MC, 1941), likewise.

These were men who led fellow-men, equally possessed with the same sense of basic decency, which is well-worth thinking about in 2018.

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

 

Edited 14 July , 2018 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[MikB]

8 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear All,

...

The participants did not realise that their, "Great", War would spawn the second, the "World" War - nor that the War would consume so many of not only them, but their Enemies (ironically now our friends)... 

Far from being "donkeys", I get the impression that they were extremely decent-minded men, oftentimes with the added advantage of an excellent education and well aware of failings of Command.

...

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

 

Well said - agreed - in many or most cases, and bearing in mind the mores of the time, of course; as we should those of our own..

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

I get the impression that they were extremely decent-minded men

 

    Yes. Very much so. With hindsight, we can see that the portents of the Western Front were there in earlier wars- the trenches before Sebastopol and those of the US Civil War in its later stages. So there is no doubting the memory of those who served.

    Remembering them is a different business. This march on Remembrance Day seems a rum do. Why limit it to 10,000- why not everyone who wants to?  Is it the logistics of crowd management? Is it a remembrance or a  gobbet for the meejah??   And I still have not thought of any real reason why tickets should be allocated in pairs

    OK, the media aspects of public events are part and parcel of modern life. The ceramic poppies at the Tower of London were a most memorable and very moving tribute to the fallen. It was a huge exercise in crowd control and the Met. and TfL staff did a very good job indeed, tempered with sensitivity and a good attitude.  Certainly the most well-attended event I ahve ever been to in London-and well worth going

[charlie962]

For advice on organising spontaneous public manifestations I hope UK Gov has asked Moscow or Peking Beijing or even Pyongyang for the expert advice. No real need to complicate matters with a ballot.

[sassenach]

And I still have not thought of any real reason why tickets should be allocated in pairs

 

Probably because it's easier to give everyone two tickets than to field thousands of calls from punters asking for a second ticket, and arguing with them when the answer is "no."  

[Steven Broomfield]

19 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Probably because it's easier to give everyone two tickets than to field thousands of calls from punters asking for a second ticket, and arguing with them when the answer is "no."  

 

One to push the wheelchair?

[keithfazzani]

Firstly I must admit that I haven't read the entirety of this thread, so I am probably jumping in with both feet. We are a small village population around 600. Things that have happened to commemorate the Great War organised by our local History Society. A World War 1 Walk featuring aspects of WW1 in the village plus a booklet readily available for visitors and holidaymakers, of whom there are many. The Battles Over - a beacon has been installed on our only hill and this will be lit with due ceremony on 11th November including all the names of those who died, this will be followed by the pealing of the church bells. Last but not least the history society has persuaded, although they didn't take much persuading, the CWGC to erect a War Graves sign at the entrance of the village cemetery to indicate the War Graves contained therein (1st and 2nd WW incidentally). I have also produced at the behest of the History Society a booklet on all the men commemorated on the village War Memorial. All of this, apart from the village walk which was an initiative involving a number of Towns and Villages, has been achieved without any public money being expended. 

 

I make these points as the general tenet of this thread would indicate that not enough has been achieved and that the general public are not interested or informed. That may be true elsewhere but certainly not in our little bit of the world. 

[hazelclark]

Remembering them is a different business. This march on Remembrance Day seems a rum do. Why limit it to 10,000- why not everyone who wants to?  Is it the logistics of crowd management? 

 

Could be.  Imagine the crowd management now!

[MikeyH]

16 hours ago, keithfazzani said:

Firstly I must admit that I haven't read the entirety of this thread, so I am probably jumping in with both feet. We are a small village population around 600. Things that have happened to commemorate the Great War organised by our local History Society. A World War 1 Walk featuring aspects of WW1 in the village plus a booklet readily available for visitors and holidaymakers, of whom there are many. The Battles Over - a beacon has been installed on our only hill and this will be lit with due ceremony on 11th November including all the names of those who died, this will be followed by the pealing of the church bells. Last but not least the history society has persuaded, although they didn't take much persuading, the CWGC to erect a War Graves sign at the entrance of the village cemetery to indicate the War Graves contained therein (1st and 2nd WW incidentally). I have also produced at the behest of the History Society a booklet on all the men commemorated on the village War Memorial. All of this, apart from the village walk which was an initiative involving a number of Towns and Villages, has been achieved without any public money being expended. 

 

I make these points as the general tenet of this thread would indicate that not enough has been achieved and that the general public are not interested or informed. That may be true elsewhere but certainly not in our little bit of the world. 

 

The 114 from Daventry and surrounding area who did not return, are to be commemorated by having chairs provided, with appropriate markings.  Which I think will be applied by local schoolchildren, these will be made available to any descendants who come forward and other interested parties.  The idea being the chair and an empty table setting will be laid out on the 11th November.  Only heard the first mention last night at a local history meeting, so there will be more detail to come.  Seems like a fitting idea.

 

Mike.

Edited 15 July , 2018 by MikeyH