Centenary squandered

[Chris_Baker]

Yesterday's anniversary of the start of the Battle of the Somme produced the usual deluge of mainstream and social media output on the subject. I've grown very used to the outpouring of 'lions led by donkeys', 'the Generals should all be shot, 'it was all futile', 'they didn't know what they were fighting for', etc, but it is disappointing to me that it appears to be little changed since before the centenary despite the very large sums of money spent on commemoration projects of all sorts.

 

There have been some very good projects and events. There have also been many which, in my own view, are not so good and even downright wasteful. It is perhaps not fair to generalise but it seems to me that it has all had next to no impact on the general public perception. A centenary squandered.

 

My question is this: if the money and effort that has been expended these last few years has had little effect, is it ever going to be possible (in the Western Front Association's words) to "educate the public"?

 

 

[T8HANTS]

No, the myths are far more attractive than education and to my mind such outstanding national works of art such as the thing with the poppies have only reinforced the myth.

I believe its a trade off, if you commemorate the casualties you will always reinforce the myths, but I believe you also increase some individuals perceived connections with their families past, so interest is increased and few go on to study in greater depth.  You will never 'educate the public', but you may educate the individual.

[Gareth Davies]

There were no outcomes.  And without outcomes (ends) it's pretty difficult to work out the ways and means needed.  In other words there was no strategy.  The performance of the PM's Special Representative for the Centenary has been woefully inadequate.  It's hardly surprising that the whole thing has missed so many opportunities.  The WFA have been woeful too.  Yes, lots of branches and individuals are doing excellent stuff but at a national level, on social media and in traditional media, they could have done so much more (and I told them as such in quite a heated debate on Twitter last summer).  They are doing a bit better now. 

 

[AOK4]

I agree. In Flanders, they were only interested in investing money so that more money would come in (tourism). I have seen very little serious new research...

 

 

[MikeMeech]

2 hours ago, Chris_Baker said:

Yesterday's anniversary of the start of the Battle of the Somme produced the usual deluge of mainstream and social media output on the subject. I've grown very used to the outpouring of 'lions led by donkeys', 'the Generals should all be shot, 'it was all futile', 'they didn't know what they were fighting for', etc, but it is disappointing to me that it appears to be little changed since before the centenary despite the very large sums of money spent on commemoration projects of all sorts.

 

There have been some very good projects and events. There have also been many which, in my own view, are not so good and even downright wasteful. It is perhaps not fair to generalise but it seems to me that it has all had next to no impact on the general public perception. A centenary squandered.

 

My question is this: if the money and effort that has been expended these last few years has had little effect, is it ever going to be possible (in the Western Front Association's words) to "educate the public"?

 

 

Hi

 

I am also rather disappointed with the centenary years mainstream and social media output reference the Great War, however, not surprised.  It is strange that many 'myths' still remain unchallenged in this media, despite numerous books published that have moved on from the 'lions led by donkeys' school, after all we are told by participants in broadcasting (in all its forms) that they are there to challenge the 'status quo' and bring us 'forgotten' aspects of history (presumably unless they 'like' the 'myths'?).

Of course I could be wrong and a TV programme is in production on the '100 Days' and how warfare had changed to bring it about, using the work of authors such as Aimee Fox ('Learning to Fight'), Paul Harris ('The Men Who Planned the War'), Brian N. Hall ('Communication and British Operations on the Western Front, 1914-1918') and many others.  Also incorporating how training changed and the role of 'SS' documents and 'Lessons Learnt' reports in changing the how the war was fought by the BEF.  However, that is unlikely and would not be seen to be interesting to the public, best to have the story that all the British 'overloaded' Troops walked forward, were killed by machine-gun fire from 1914-1918, then the Americans arrive and the war was over!

It is also highly probable that the general public is quite happy with the 'myths' of the Great War so why should the 'media' change it?

 

Mike

[Margosh]

I think to a certain extent you have to want to be educated.

You can spend a fortune on projects of wonderful, correct, inspiring information but you can't make people take it in. Those who are interested and want to learn will.

Sensationalism will always attract, xx-thousand men who died is far more interesting than xx-thousand who came home. And if that's what grabs you you'll go for the bigger stories, the bigger numbers etc.

Hopefully some of the centenary projects and events have provided a kickstart for those who do have a real interest and want to learn more (I certainly have, although not specifically because of the anniversary).

Has the money spent on projects and events been spent wisely? That's a different matter, I have no idea who spent what. There will always be missed opportunities.

 

Margaret

 

 

[KONDOA]

Those that lived are more important than the lads that died. The living formed the future in all of the countries involved but it is too complex, too political and too interesting to the modern mass of dumb asses.

[Keith Woodland]

Surely this is just one example of the large level of ignorance about a wide variety of historical subjects, international, national and local where what is believed by the many is often plain wrong. As history taught in school is very limited and often much more interested in applying modern isms then the chances of any improvement has to be unlikley any time now.

I don't expect any of our leaders would want to take on the challenge, and many of them will be as ignorant as those they are meant to serve.

[loganshort]

Is WW1 still taught in schools? And what age? Young people I ask dont seem to know anything about it, confusing both 1st and 2nd Wars together. Older teens seem to learn more about the German homefront in WW2 than the British side! I believe you cannot teach WW2 without starting with WW1 and this gives the building blocks for understanding how the modern world works today. Would be great to assist youngsters in their understanding of the "myths" by letting them view the likes of "Oh What a Lovely War" and then discussing and exploring the perceptions and myths therein.  (I do love the film actually, whilst taking it with a pinch of salt!) but history teaching in schools is a sore subject, seemingly not relevant and embarrassing when it comes to mentioning "The Empire"! 

[Guest]

  Chris Baker raises 2 very valid points that colour most of what I have ever done about the Great War

1)  What are we commemorating and why?

2) Who is commemorating what- and why?

 

      On 1), there seems to be no overall  point of view- esp,say, the Somme- "Lions led by Donkeys"/ slaughter/ gallantry,etc. And I think there will never be agreement on this. Is this a good thing?  I think so- if we ever reach the stage where there is only ONE "received" opinion/view about any bit of History, then all is lost  and we will all be living in 1984-Land.  We have the freedom to believe what we wish- we have the freedom to choose what "evidence" we wish to support our views.  Over a period of time, the work of many folk on proper historical research will penetrate the popular consciousness.  And,hopefully, overcome ignorance, bigotry and  plain wrongness.  If we can reverse the scenario- Who the hell has the right to tell me what to believe?

      There is a much wider debate on all of this going on at the moment in other areas of History- the Imperial legacy stuff might be considered "political" by our Mods. But it comes down to the same thing (re pulling down statues,etc)-  I have an absolute right to seek  out the History I want to believe in and that's that. Not that someone can "arrange" what is there for me to believe in.

     An enduring problem with the Great War is that the 2 main agencies of "commemoration"  are both fettered in what they can do. ie IWM and CWGC. Both have to operate within the bounds set by their masters-and it is useful to remember that "masters" were originally those of our political leadership who were involved in the Great War- Lloyd George, Churchill etc. Both are splendidly neutral and apolitical- but both of those stances are somewhat compromised  by the  range in which they have to operate. 

   2) Who is commemorating?  Well, this seems to be a matter of expectation  of WHAT we should commemorate and remember (which are not the same things) -  how we set about it.  For IWM,-well, it has done quite a bit-but also managed to upset quite a few people in the process. WFA?  It is, in straight political terms- a single-issue "pressure group" of a sort- the memorialisation of the Great War. Should it have  run courses or conferences on "Transgender Issues of the Great War" or  "Flower Arranging  on the Western Front"-well, its membership chose what they wanted to do and thats an end to that-  Their money, their society, their membership- and their choices.

     Significant public funds, both national and local, were made available. I suppose that in time there will be some sort of public accounts analysis of what was spent on what and whether it represented "good value". I have been to some appalling commemorations- My former local council arranged a memorial day at the borough's main war memorial-a mistake as it is isolated by the constant traffic of the A12 and there was no parking. Poorly attended. The amateur music hall acts of "First World War" songs- all in best "faux- Lor Luv a Duck Cockney" can only be described as nauseating-as was the man on stilts dressed as John Bull.

    But my point is this. Sure,there is waste, sure there is some pretty poor stuff out there. There is also a lot of very good stuff. Those that obtained monies had a freedom to commemorate as they wished.  Or do we just want the single party line, Red Square, giant picture of Stalin with pointy finger school of History and commemoration.? The poor projects and schemes are part of the freedom we have  and, by way of contrast, lead us to applaud the variety and depth of the better and the best. 

    

[loganshort]

Good points for debate,  I hope we all put our thinking caps (or even kepis) on! And on the subject of music hall cockneys: the best singer of WW1 chorus songs was Florrie Forde - and she was Australian!

[Medaler]

Surely the problems that we have just experienced with many of the commemorations is that, once again, the lions have been led by the donkeys?

 

Mike

[Knotty]

Significant public funds, both national and local, were made available. I suppose that in time there will be some sort of public accounts analysis of what was spent on what and whether it represented "good value". 

 

In 2012 “call me Dave”, pledge £50 million from government to finance the celebrations and commemorations, a bit early for a FOI , but it will be interesting to see where it has all gone.

 

How many here on the Forum have applied for the ticket ballot via the govt website to attend the Amiens100 ceremony at the cathedral, very few I would guess (to late now it closed mid April). The existence of this and many other ceremonies was almost secretive unless you knew where to look.

 

 I think this just about sums it up:-

On 02/07/2018 at 09:15, Gareth Davies said:

In other words there was no strategy.  The performance of the PM's Special Representative for the Centenary has been woefully inadequate.  

and include the remainder of the Centenary Advisory board, all 16 + Minister

[Derek Black]

3 hours ago, loganshort said:

Is WW1 still taught in schools? And what age? Young people I ask dont seem to know anything about it, confusing both 1st and 2nd Wars together. Older teens seem to learn more about the German homefront in WW2 than the British side! I believe you cannot teach WW2 without starting with WW1 and this gives the building blocks for understanding how the modern world works today. Would be great to assist youngsters in their understanding of the "myths" by letting them view the likes of "Oh What a Lovely War" and then discussing and exploring the perceptions and myths therein.  (I do love the film actually, whilst taking it with a pinch of salt!) but history teaching in schools is a sore subject, seemingly not relevant and embarrassing when it comes to mentioning "The Empire"! 

I went to school from the early 1980's til the mid 1990's on the east coast of Scotland.

 

There was nothing taught of the fighting regarding the world wars, it was mostly about the dreadnaught race pre WW1, then a lot about politics between the wars from the Treaty of Versailles up until the start of WW2.
WW2 was all about the homefront, with some bits about the danger of the V1 and V2 rockets to those in the south of England.

As a child always interested in WW2 in particular, as my grandfathers had went through it, I'm confident that is the entirety of the subject matter i was taught regarding the wars.

Derek.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Gareth Davies said:

PM's Special Representative for the Centenary

 

     Uh?   Who he?   Well, having been alerted by Mr Google's Apparatus that he is an MP for South-West Wiltshire, then must be careful.  A zap of GWF  search facility shows that , by name at least, he has never been mentioned by name on this Forum since his appointment in 2013. And  that by official title, he has not been mentioned at all until  2nd July 2018- and that is only Gareth Davies drawing attention to his existence in a post on this very thread. GWF claims 46,000 members- and nary a mention of  the post or the post holder between the lot of us.  GD is right on this -  this chap should have been taking a lead-esp. in the disposal (and subsequent accounting for) of a large chunk of public funds.. Google is showing up some verbiage from 2011-2013- and then- hopefully the following tweet from 2017

 

   

andrew murrison‏Verified account @AWMurrison

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Useful meeting of First World War Centenary Advisory Group this pm discussing the lead up to Armistice.

9:07 AM - 12 Oct 2017

 

 

      So perhaps we can expect full details of the Armistice commemorations  -preferably before 11th November,please. 

[Medaler]

andrew murrison‏Verified account @AWMurrison

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Useful meeting of First World War Centenary Advisory Group this pm discussing the lead up to Armistice.

I suspect it goes on to say "Somebody has at last told me what the Armistice was and who we had been fighting. I still don't know why we were fighting or who won, but I have another all expenses paid dinner tomorrow and I may find out then."

 

Mike

[Knotty]

34 minutes ago, Medaler said:

but I have another all expenses paid dinner tomorrow and I may find out then."

 

This will sound more of a rant, so I’ll keep it short. In 2015 I pre-booked and paid for a hotel room to be able to take part, privately, in the Passchendaele ceromonies at the end of July 2017. All’s well until end of April 2017 when I recieve a letter from hotel saying that as I had not been allocated a ticket by ballot then my room was being reissued to a ticket holder, and here is your monies returned. 

I can't tell you my anger at this, but remonstrate though I may it got me nowhere. How did they know I was not on the ballot, all down to my passport which you use to register, both at the hotel and when you ballot, that much I do now know.

 

As intimated there was and still are a number of freeloaders, how many of the “celebrities” at the up and coming Amiens100 will be recognisable on the BBC coverage?

 

Rant over

[Gareth Davies]

Uh?   Who he?   Well, having been alerted by Mr Google's Apparatus that he is an MP for South-West Wiltshire, then must be careful.  A zap of GWF  search facility shows that , by name at least, he has never been mentioned by name on this Forum since his appointment in 2013. And  that by official title, he has not been mentioned at all until  2nd July 2018- and that is only Gareth Davies drawing attention to his existence in a post on this very thread. GWF claims 46,000 members- and nary a mention of  the post or the post holder between the lot of us.  GD is right on this -  this chap should have been taking a lead-esp. in the disposal (and subsequent accounting for) of a large chunk of public funds.. Google is showing up some verbiage from 2011-2013- and then- hopefully the following tweet from 2017

andrew murrison‏Verified account @AWMurrison

FollowFollow @AWMurrison

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Useful meeting of First World War Centenary Advisory Group this pm discussing the lead up to Armistice.

9:07 AM - 12 Oct 2017

 

So perhaps we can expect full details of the Armistice commemorations  -preferably before 11th November,please. 

His name appears in at least 7 threads made post 2013. But yes, your point still stands, he is almost the invisible man and he has done precious little.

[Guest]

 

47 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

 

His name appears in at least 7 threads made post 2013. But yes, your point still stands, he is almost the invisible man and he has done precious little.

 

   But my apologies to you  and to him- I zapped the wrong spelling of his name (one r).  I think the lack of reference to his official role stands correct-  Without straying into politics, he is also US at the Northern Ireland Office and Trade Envoy for Tunisia and Algeria, which suggests that the First World War is not over-burdening his time. Out of interest, the full advisory board  announced at the same time as Dr. Murrisson is below   I wonder how many times it has met- and whether the minutes of meetings are in the public domain 

    I am not bothered with the politicking or  rights and wrongs of all of this- Now, the Great War centenary is pretty much an historical event in itself- so in years to come, we will be researching why and how the commemorations came out the way they did.

 

Members of the board

• Pat Barker, novelist and author of the Regeneration Trilogy
• Admiral Lord Boyce, former First Sea Lord, Chief of the Naval Staff and Chief of the Defence Staff
• Professor Michael Burleigh, academic, author and historian
• Sir Menzies Campbell MP
• General Lord Dannatt, former Chief of the General Staff
• Jeffrey Donaldson MP, Special representative for Northern Ireland
• Sebastian Faulks, broadcaster, novelist and author of Birdsong
• Field Marshal Lord Guthrie, former Chief of defence staff
• Sir Deian Hopkin, Special representative for Wales and President of the National Library of Wales
• David McDonough, Chairman of the PR consultancy The McDonough Partnership
• Dr Andrew Murrison MP, the Prime Minister’s special representative in the centenary planning
• The Very Reverend June Osborne, Dean of Salisbury
• Air Chief Marshall ‘Jock’ Stirrup, former Chief of Defence Staff
• Brigadier Professor Hew Strachan, the Scottish military historian
• Baron King of Bridgwater, former Defence Secretary
• Keith Simpson MP, Member of Parliament for Broadland

[Knotty]

My last comment on what I feel was a wasted opportunity. The board has, of this morning, made available 10 publications and 188 announcements ( of which 50% where released prior to 4/8/2014) relating to the Centenary commemorations.

The standard of some of the announcements is dubious, take for instance this link

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/andrew-murrison-writes-letter-to-an-unknown-soldier

If you check the date of publishing, 31/7/2014 and the planned closing date of 4/8/2014, it shows that there appears a total lack of forward planning. I am not condemning the original arts project that started much earlier, it is the government body that seems to have dragged its feet on the promotion.

Backing out now as it’s venturing into politics!

[Howard]

On 02/07/2018 at 08:49, Chris_Baker said:

My question is this: if the money and effort that has been expended these last few years has had little effect, is it ever going to be possible (in the Western Front Association's words) to "educate the public"?

 

 

Sadly it is far worse than that. You might argue (I wouldn't) that the Lions & Donkeys idea is an opinion, not an objective fact, yet what "everyone knows" even about easily measured objective facts is very poor indeed. Hans Rosling points that out in his excellent book Factfullness, ignorance of widely published and undisputed objective measures is startling, it extends to groups of well-educated people and even to Nobel Laureates (outside of their own specialisms). When asked a question with three possible responses, Rosling points out that monkeys will get the answer right on a third of occasions by pure chance. Nearly all people, even intelligent well educated ones, will generally get the answer wrong by far more than pure chance owing to "what they know". That means that people hold erroneous views whilst retaining the confidence that they are correct despite the undisputed facts being widely disseminated and easily available.

 

It is worth reading his book. If nothing else, it will reduce the waste of time people spend trying to "educate" people about the Great War, Rosling realised that approach does not work- when people "know" about a subject, they no longer listen and are ignorant of the fact that monkeys can then outperform them.

 

We can all make a list of Great War misconceptions but how about looking at a non-war one Rosling presents:- "There are 2 billion children in the world today aged 0 to 15 years old. How many children will there be in the year 2100 according to the United Nations? A:- 4 billion, B:- 3 Billion or C:- 2 billion. The vast majority get it wrong, not just a third.

 

What chance is there of the general population getting a Great War question wrong, how about "What proportion of casualties were caused by chemical weapons", A:- 1%, B:- 2% or C:- 3%.

 

Howard

[bruce]

A study of the Great War is still taught in schools in England and Wales. It is part of Key Stage 3......that is the first three years of secondary school. It is also mentioned in KS2. As a result, nine year olds are to some extent aware of the war. Locally, the local committee of schools has applied for, and gained, four grants from the Heritage Lottery Fund, working with primary schools in Maghull, Lydiate, Melling and Aintree. Pamphlets about those who were lost have been written, printed and distributed (and are available, if you ask me for one!), and the schedule old involved now also have memorial tablets within their grounds. Each town also held an open night, visits to war memorials, and a Church memorial service, with pupils singing, dancing etc in uniforms which were in a large plastic box available in each school, with such other things as brassards, pigeon posts, hard tack biscuits, etc.

PRimary school children are too young for battlefield tours, but many schools organise an annual tour, for which I am delighted as a tour guide!

The RBL will mark the centenary of its first Pilgrimage to the Western Front in August, and it is anticipated that nearly 100 coaches will be taking at least two representatives of each branch.

Educating people about the Great War is ongoing!

 

bruce

[depaor01]

29 minutes ago, Howard said:

What proportion of casualties

Meaning deaths or meaning injuries? The difference causes some of the most common misunderstandings

[Gareth Davies]

I take casualties to mean the combination of dead and wounded/injured. 

Edited 3 July , 2018 by Gareth Davies

[sassenach]

3 hours ago, Knotty said:

 

This will sound more of a rant, so I’ll keep it short. In 2015 I pre-booked and paid for a hotel room to be able to take part, privately, in the Passchendaele ceromonies at the end of July 2017. All’s well until end of April 2017 when I recieve a letter from hotel saying that as I had not been allocated a ticket by ballot then my room was being reissued to a ticket holder, and here is your monies returned. 

I can't tell you my anger at this, but remonstrate though I may it got me nowhere. How did they know I was not on the ballot, all down to my passport which you use to register, both at the hotel and when you ballot, that much I do now know.

 

As intimated there was and still are a number of freeloaders, how many of the “celebrities” at the up and coming Amiens100 will be recognisable on the BBC coverage?

 

Rant over

I turned up on 30 July last year to be told that the hotel room I had booked a year earlier had been "requisitioned by the British Government last week."