31984 Pte John Clements 2Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers

[Royal Scots]

Hi Everyone

 

I am new to this site as over the last year i have been researching my family history. I have found that my great great uncle served in the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers and died in 1917. My main goal is to find a photograph of him and it led me to here to see if anyone could help me?

This is what i know of my great great uncle.

 

Born 1894 - Greenock Scotland

Private - Service number: 31984

Killed in Action - 15th September 1917 France and Flanders

Buried: Derry House Cemetery No2 Belgium 

 

Any other information anyone has or can help with would be greatly appreciated. i want to know as much as i can about him to better honour his life and sacrifice.

 

Thank You

[ss002d6252]

I assume he is John Clements of 2nd RSF.
 

The war gratuity which was paid (£3 net) was a flat rate for 12 months or less service so, on this occasion, it only tells us he enlisted in the 12 months from 16 September 16.

 

EDIT:
His service record survives - https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM/WO363-4/7303292/53/1055

 

(You will see his service record shows he attested in Dec 15 (under the Derby Scheme) but was not called up until January 17. The War Gratuity was only paid for the time once a man had been called up so that is why it indicates his service started some time after September 16.)

Craig

Edited 28 June , 2018 by ss002d6252

[Royal Scots]

11 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

I assume he is John Clements of 2nd RSF.
 

The war gratuity which was paid (£3 net) was a flat rate for 12 months or less service so, on this occasion, it only tells us he enlisted in the 12 months from 16 September 16.

 

EDIT:
His service record survives - https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM/WO363-4/7303292/53/1055

 

(You will see his service record shows he attested in Dec 15 (under the Derby Scheme) but was not called up until January 17. The War Gratuity was only paid for the time once a man had been called up so that is why it indicates his service started some time after September 16.)

Craig

Hi Craig

 

Yes, my great great uncle was John

 

Thank you so much for the info, i am starting to build a better picture of his life and these things really help in this.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Pat Atkins]

2/RSF were in the line in the Ypres sector at the time of your relative's death (Derry House cemetery is just behind Ypres, I think). The War Diary is available on Ancestry and says of 15th September 1917: "A considerable amount of artillery fire on both sides during the night, harassing roads and approaches to front line. Day fairly quiet. Casualties: 2 OR killed & 7 OR wounded." The day before, two men had been wounded by aerial bombing, the day before that the toll was one killed and two wounded by shelling - the famous "attrition" of the trenches.

 

Cheers, Pat.

[MaxD]

sBit p***ed off to find the identical query on another thread (2nd Bttn Royal Scots Fusiliers War Diary etc) on which I and others spent a great deal of time producing an answer similar to Pat including the WD extracts and other info.  Not sure it helps to duplicate threads except to waste folk's time!

 

Max

Edited 28 June , 2018 by MaxD
spelling

[MaxD]

Royal Scots

 

My response to someone who has only just joined the forum should have been less snippy, for that I apologise.  I hope you have got what you wanted from the two threads.  I shall repeat this on the other thread.

 

Max

[Royal Scots]

Thanks everyone for all of your assistance and information. I have managed to put together a good bit of info on Johns life. Considering my family did not know he existed this time last year.

 

Does anyone know if there is anywhere that i could find a photograph of him? Did the Royal Scots Fusiliers take standard photos of their soldiers or group photos etc?

[seaJane]

Local papers are usually the best bet - try the local history section of the public library for the area he was living in before he signed up.

[KevinBattle]

It doesn't help when crucial initial information such as NAME is not included.

Better to caption the thread with Name and other useful details so we know what you already have and can then expand on them, rather than search for what you already know.

 

CWGC has 

CLEMENTS, J. Service Number 31984. Died 15/09/1917. 
2nd Bn. Royal Scots Fusiliers

(No Additional Information from family as to age, parents, home address etc)

 

Soldiers Died has

Name: John Clements. Birth Place: Greenock. Death Date: 15 Sep 1917. Enlistment Place: Greenock
Rank: Private. Regiment: Royal Scots Fusiliers. Battalion: 2nd Battalion. Regimental Number: 31984.
Type of Casualty: Killed in action

 

1901 Scotland Census has

Name: John Clements. Age: 8. Birth Year: abt 1893. Father's name: Peter Clements. Mother's name: Eliza Clements
Where born: Greenock, Renfrewshire. Registration district:    Greenock West, Renfrewshire. Address: 11 Mill St
Occupation: Scholar. Peter Clements, 32; Eliza Clements, 29. Elizabeth Clements, 10; John Clements, 8; Alexander Clements, 5.

Headstone shows Next of Kin as Mr Thomas Swift, Uppertown, Ashover, near Chesterfield. Was this Elizabeths husband?
Private H Bailey was killed the same day and is buried in the adjacent grave, so the 2 chums remain together, in death as in life.

 

His parents seem to young to have both died by 1917/18 so presumably had moved and no forwarding address given to the Army.

I double checked the Next of Kin or his headstone and that clearly shows a Mr Thomas Swift from Chesterfield, but no apparent connection, so was he Elizabeth's husband?

 

EDIT: To add

It seems the family had moved from 11, Mill Street by 1914

WHITE, HUGH. Private. Service Number 31339. Died 25/10/1918. Aged 32.
2nd Bn. Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
Son of Mr. H. White, of 11, Mill St., Greenock.
Buried at INGOYGHEM MILITARY CEMETERY. Cemetery/memorial reference: C. 29.

FINLAYSON, T. Bombardier. Service Number 84108. Died 22/07/1917. Aged 20
"C" Bty. 84th Bde. Royal Field Artillery
Son of Alexander and Isabella Finlayson, of 10, Mill St., Greenock.
Buried at BLEUET FARM CEMETERY. Cemetery/memorial reference: I. H. 10.

WILSON, HUGH MCCLOY. Private. Service Number 20861. Died 03/09/1916. Aged 23.
2nd Bn. King's Own Scottish Borderers
Son of Peter and Mary Wilson, of 10, Mill St., Greenock.
Buried at DELVILLE WOOD CEMETERY, LONGUEVAL. Cemetery/memorial reference: XXVII. M. 8.

WILSON, PETER. Gunner. Service Number 951669. Died 29/08/1918. Aged 30.
127th Bty. 29th Bde. Royal Field Artillery
Son of Peter and Mary Wilson, of 10 Mill St., Greenock.
Buried at FEUCHY CHAPEL BRITISH CEMETERY, WANCOURT. Cemetery/memorial reference: I. G. 5.

SCOTT, HEATON. Corporal. Service Number 789. Died 12/07/1915. Aged 23.
1st/5th Bn.  Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
Son of Letitia Scott, of 7, Mill St., Greenock, and the late Heaton Scott.
Commemorated at HELLES MEMORIAL. Cemetery/memorial reference: Panel 185 and 186.

WORKMAN, J. Private. Service Number 5421. Died 02/01/1917. Aged 20.
12th Bn. Highland Light Infantry. Award: D C M
Son of Alexander and Jane Workman, of 5, Mill St., Greenock.
Commemorated at YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL. Cemetery/memorial reference: Panel 38.

BLACK, THOMAS. Private. Service Number 29431. Died 20/11/1917. Aged 28.
1st Bn. Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
Son of Thomas and Ellen Black, of 12, Mill St., Greenock.
Commemorated at CAMBRAI MEMORIAL, LOUVERVAL. Cemetery/memorial reference: Panel 5 and 6.

CAMPBELL, JAMES. Corporal. Service Number 10493. Died 25/09/1915. Aged 25.
2nd Bn. Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Awards: Cross of St. George (Russia). 
Son of Mr. and Mrs. John Campbell; of 9, Mill St., Greenock; husband of Margaret Campbell, of 24, West Blackhall St., Greenock.
Buried at CAMBRIN CHURCHYARD EXTENSION. Cemetery/memorial reference: C. 4.

 

but with so many other families also receiving Additional Information Forms, I'm surprised no one appears to know where the family were.

Edited 4 July , 2018 by KevinBattle

[Guest]

   A small curiosity is that he does not appear to be in the Scottish National War Memorial. Nor on the Greenock War Memorial, whose memorial register has been put online by Inverclyde Council.

    Does this mean that he was elsewhere  and only returned to Greenock when called up?????  

[KevinBattle]

When John attested in December 1915, his Next of Kin was his father, address given as 70 amended to 68, Ann Street, Greenock.

From his Service Record as noted by Craig, he seems to have been a disgruntled soldier, reaching France in early June 1917 he was immediately given 1 day Field Punishment No 2 for insolence towards a Warrant Officer and on 16th, just 3 days later he got 14 days FP No 1 for not complying with an Order in the ranks and using obscene language to a NCO.

 

In February 1918 his personal effects (ring, pencil and a religious book) were returned to his father who signed for them at Ardgowan House, Greenock. (NOT Argowan House).

Perhaps a Pal with local knowledge may understand if that is of significance.

[McLean Museum]

http://www.inverclydeww1.org/honour-roll/john-clements

 

[Royal Scots]

On 05/07/2018 at 05:03, KevinBattle said:

It doesn't help when crucial initial information such as NAME is not included.

Better to caption the thread with Name and other useful details so we know what you already have and can then expand on them, rather than search for what you already know.

 

CWGC has 

CLEMENTS, J. Service Number 31984. Died 15/09/1917. 
2nd Bn. Royal Scots Fusiliers

(No Additional Information from family as to age, parents, home address etc)

 

Soldiers Died has

Name: John Clements. Birth Place: Greenock. Death Date: 15 Sep 1917. Enlistment Place: Greenock
Rank: Private. Regiment: Royal Scots Fusiliers. Battalion: 2nd Battalion. Regimental Number: 31984.
Type of Casualty: Killed in action

 

1901 Scotland Census has

Name: John Clements. Age: 8. Birth Year: abt 1893. Father's name: Peter Clements. Mother's name: Eliza Clements
Where born: Greenock, Renfrewshire. Registration district:    Greenock West, Renfrewshire. Address: 11 Mill St
Occupation: Scholar. Peter Clements, 32; Eliza Clements, 29. Elizabeth Clements, 10; John Clements, 8; Alexander Clements, 5.

Headstone shows Next of Kin as Mr Thomas Swift, Uppertown, Ashover, near Chesterfield. Was this Elizabeths husband?
Private H Bailey was killed the same day and is buried in the adjacent grave, so the 2 chums remain together, in death as in life.

 

His parents seem to young to have both died by 1917/18 so presumably had moved and no forwarding address given to the Army.

I double checked the Next of Kin or his headstone and that clearly shows a Mr Thomas Swift from Chesterfield, but no apparent connection, so was he Elizabeth's husband?

 

EDIT: To add

It seems the family had moved from 11, Mill Street by 1914

WHITE, HUGH. Private. Service Number 31339. Died 25/10/1918. Aged 32.
2nd Bn. Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
Son of Mr. H. White, of 11, Mill St., Greenock.
Buried at INGOYGHEM MILITARY CEMETERY. Cemetery/memorial reference: C. 29.

FINLAYSON, T. Bombardier. Service Number 84108. Died 22/07/1917. Aged 20
"C" Bty. 84th Bde. Royal Field Artillery
Son of Alexander and Isabella Finlayson, of 10, Mill St., Greenock.
Buried at BLEUET FARM CEMETERY. Cemetery/memorial reference: I. H. 10.

WILSON, HUGH MCCLOY. Private. Service Number 20861. Died 03/09/1916. Aged 23.
2nd Bn. King's Own Scottish Borderers
Son of Peter and Mary Wilson, of 10, Mill St., Greenock.
Buried at DELVILLE WOOD CEMETERY, LONGUEVAL. Cemetery/memorial reference: XXVII. M. 8.

WILSON, PETER. Gunner. Service Number 951669. Died 29/08/1918. Aged 30.
127th Bty. 29th Bde. Royal Field Artillery
Son of Peter and Mary Wilson, of 10 Mill St., Greenock.
Buried at FEUCHY CHAPEL BRITISH CEMETERY, WANCOURT. Cemetery/memorial reference: I. G. 5.

SCOTT, HEATON. Corporal. Service Number 789. Died 12/07/1915. Aged 23.
1st/5th Bn.  Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
Son of Letitia Scott, of 7, Mill St., Greenock, and the late Heaton Scott.
Commemorated at HELLES MEMORIAL. Cemetery/memorial reference: Panel 185 and 186.

WORKMAN, J. Private. Service Number 5421. Died 02/01/1917. Aged 20.
12th Bn. Highland Light Infantry. Award: D C M
Son of Alexander and Jane Workman, of 5, Mill St., Greenock.
Commemorated at YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL. Cemetery/memorial reference: Panel 38.

BLACK, THOMAS. Private. Service Number 29431. Died 20/11/1917. Aged 28.
1st Bn. Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
Son of Thomas and Ellen Black, of 12, Mill St., Greenock.
Commemorated at CAMBRAI MEMORIAL, LOUVERVAL. Cemetery/memorial reference: Panel 5 and 6.

CAMPBELL, JAMES. Corporal. Service Number 10493. Died 25/09/1915. Aged 25.
2nd Bn. Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Awards: Cross of St. George (Russia). 
Son of Mr. and Mrs. John Campbell; of 9, Mill St., Greenock; husband of Margaret Campbell, of 24, West Blackhall St., Greenock.
Buried at CAMBRIN CHURCHYARD EXTENSION. Cemetery/memorial reference: C. 4.

 

but with so many other families also receiving Additional Information Forms, I'm surprised no one appears to know where the family were.

Hi KevinBattle

Thank you so so much for all of the information you have provided. Truly great.

Really interesting with the next of kin being a Thomas Swift - never heard of him. Was not Elizabeths husband as she married William Milligan in 1913.

Perhaps he was a fellow soldier and maybe john had severed ties with the family so put Thomas down as next of kin, or maybe they were lovers???

I am still after all these years searching for a photograph. i think it odd that the army would not take a photo of each soldier when they signed up.

[Michelle Young]

Photographs were still quite expensive and I imagine the Army were more concerned with recruiting men than recording on film  what they looked like. They had their description in their service papers. 

[6RRF]

ID Photographs simply weren't taken. As Michelle says there was no reason for them then.

As a result, it's a matter of tracking down a private one. Ideally this will be found at home, but otherwise the local newspaper is the most likely source - not that they went round photographing people either, but it was common for families to provide their local paper with a picture of the hero who had just signed up, or all too often bravely fallen in the service of his country