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Remembered Today:

Presentation bayonet?


Jezzageorge

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The 1st Bn Irish Guards..Lord Roberts Own...I have often wondered about this bayonet's story...Maybe a presentation piece for a long serving officer?

I was most interested in it because Rudyard Kipling wrote the regiment's unit history, and his son was killed in the regiment in WW1....My late aunt was Kipling's private nurse and was holding his hand when he died....the family joke much later, was that was the reason !!!

If anybody has any good ideas I would like to hear...an American collector said it was a fake....but what were they faking when they did this?

 I am hoping it will one day find a good home...if a good offer is made..

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7A6FE186-09D3-4CA0-B60E-1F2CA30B0733.png

4051D210-35BB-47BC-B79D-3EB488FD9DA3.png

9605D0AE-A613-4826-9D9D-43926FFEA7DE.png

Edited by Jezzageorge
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Interesting piece,

Any unit markings on the pommel, or any inspection stamps on the reverse of the blade?

the only etched blade I've come across on one of these is here....http://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/viewphoto.php?shoph=18549&phqu=10

 

Dave.

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It reminds me of the WWII German S.84/98 service bayonets with engraved markings that are generally acknowledged in bayonet collecting circles as being postwar fantasy pieces. My initial guess is that it's something somebody had made up out of a standard P1907 bayonet long after WWI.

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A similar one marked to 'The Royal Sussex Regiment' came up for auction locally six weeks or so ago.

This also carried engraving to the pommel and scabbard chape.  It was a Wilkinson dated Nov. 1918.

The lot sold but the auction house does not publish realised prices.

 

Mike.

Edited by MikeyH
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Hi,

Is the inspection date stamp not 1 17 indicating January 1917?

Does anyone agree with that?

Owain.

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The bayonet pictured is either 1 17 or a partly polished out 11 17.

 

Mike.

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I think the production date looks to be 11 17, on the reverse of the blade you will sometimes see a number, (eg 23 for 1923) indicating the year it has been inspected as part of the armourers routine...if there was an interwar inspection date, the blade decoration must have been applied after that date.

 

Dave.

 

 

Edited by Dave66
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Thanks for all your comments guys....No markings on the pommel and no refurbishing , inspection date on the reverse side of ricasso. Production date is 11/  17..

it is certainly not a fantasy piece!! Am surprised at a comment like this...

Hopefully I will find somebody at our next arms fair who will give it a good home...

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On 27/06/2018 at 09:32, Jezzageorge said:

it is certainly not a fantasy piece!! Am surprised at a comment like this...

I didn't say it was. Merely that's what that style of engraving reminds me of. The level of wear on the ricasso doesn't seem to match that on the blade which might suggest the engravings were added relatively recently. (It also looks like the edge of the blade has been ground down slightly) However, this probably wasn't with any intention to deceive.

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3 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

I didn't say it was. Merely that's what that style of engraving reminds me of. The level of wear on the ricasso doesn't seem to match that on the blade which might suggest the engravings were added relatively recently. (It also looks like the edge of the blade has been ground down slightly) However, this probably wasn't with any intention to deceive.

I have to say I agree, and would be cautious for all the above reasons....lettering similar to quite a few daggers I've come across over the years, provenance would be the key thing in my mind.

 

Dave.

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 after the end of ww1, british army kept the habbit [gained by germans] on etching the war - served bayonets.

BUT a lof of fakes are coming around the last years.

I agree with Dave 66.

regards, D.

 

Just now, zuluwar2006 said:

 after the end of ww1, british army kept the habbit [gained by germans] on etching the war - served bayonets.

BUT a lof of fakes are coming around the last years.

I agree with Dave 66.

regards, D.

 

this bayonet, seemed to be ok, i have to say.

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On 26/06/2018 at 08:55, MikeyH said:

A similar one marked to 'The Royal Sussex Regiment' came up for auction locally six weeks or so ago.

This also carried engraving to the pommel and scabbard chape.  It was a Wilkinson dated Nov. 1918.

The lot sold but the auction house does not publish realised prices.

 

Mike.

I would give my eye-teeth for that one marked to The Royal Sussex Regiment !

 

Regards,

JMB

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16 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

I would give my eye-teeth for that one marked to The Royal Sussex Regiment !

 

Regards,

JMB

 

JMB,

 

Yes, it was a very nice example.  The engraving/etching vaguely similar to #1, but to a better standard, the pommel on the 'press catch' side marked 1914 and presume 1918 to the reverse.  The blade on one side marked:-

 

'Royal Sussex Regiment (35th Regiment of Foot) The Great War 1914-1918'.  The opposite side 'To the Men of the old 35th who fell at the battles of Mons and Le Cateu. 1914'

 

The scabbard chape, marked 'Royal Sussex Regiment'. The scabbard stamped RE for Remington.  Both blade panels edged and 'greyed out', with the wording bright polished.  A piece of red felt had been inserted into the mortise slot, in the manner of a parade bayonet.

 

 The auction pre-sale estimate was £300 - £500 GBP, but as I said they do not publish realised prices.

 

I normally follow bidding online, as have had a couple of good buys from them, but was away on the day of the auction.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

 

Edited by MikeyH
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Mike,

 

Thanks for those details, it does sound gorgeous.

However, those kind of prices are somewhat above my pay grade.

One question with these presentation Bayonets that occurs to me is, “who was the recipient?”

 

Regards,

JMB

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  • 5 weeks later...

Racking my brains for where I have seen a P.1907 presentation piece with an engraved blade, made by ?Wilkinson but ?not issued? In Skennerton and Richardson? Away from home so cannot check...

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On 02/08/2018 at 06:06, trajan said:

Racking my brains for where I have seen a P.1907 presentation piece with an engraved blade, made by ?Wilkinson but ?not issued? In Skennerton and Richardson? Away from home so cannot check...

Trajan,

Spot on !!

Here is the relevant description copied from Skennerton, p. 394,

"Some Wilkinson Commemorative bayonets were made up in the 1970's and a sample is illustrated in R9. While the quality of the etching on the blade is quite good, other details are obviously incorrect; ex-service bayonets have been used because of the inspection, proof and re-furbishing marks on the ricasso, and the grips and fittings are not of the standard that Wilkinson would have maintained for such a presentation. Originals have the Wilkinson inspection marks."

 

Here is the Skennerton description that accompanies illustration #R9, p. 395,

"Converted from ex-service bayonet - the originals were made from new, unissued Wilkinson bayonets so there would be no ordnance marks on the ricasso."

 

I would say that the bayonet in question, 1st Bn. Irish Guards, fits the description to a T; good etching & ordnance marks both apparent.

 

Regards,

JMB

[Julian, another week and you would have been posted AWOL; happy to see you back!!]

Edited by JMB1943
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17 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Trajan,

Spot on !!

[Julian, another week and you would have been posted AWOL; happy to see you back!!]

 

Ahah! So the grey matter does work sometimes in a trustworthy way! Thanks for the confirmation, and I offer no comment on the piece here!

 

Julian

 

PS: AWOL... Good to be back! Yes, a matter of work, the curse of the drinking working classes, has kept me away - but expect a draft article from me for you to look over in a couple of days if you will!

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Quite happy with the drinking class bit...good to see you're back Julian.

cant quite work out which ones Holmes or Watson, but you both educated me on this one!

 

Dave.

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13 hours ago, Dave66 said:

Quite happy with the drinking class bit...good to see you're back Julian.

cant quite work out which ones Holmes or Watson, but you both educated me on this one!

 

Dave.

 

Good to be back! Well, Sunday, so perhaps it is time for a glass or two (or more!) of good old English ale!

 

As for the Holmes and Watson, thanks, but I bow my head in deep respect to my compadre JMB, who is fast becoming one of the main men for systematic P.1907 studies!

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3 hours ago, trajan said:

 

Good to be back! Well, Sunday, so perhaps it is time for a glass or two (or more!) of good old English ale!

 

As for the Holmes and Watson, thanks, but I bow my head in deep respect to my compadre JMB, who is fast becoming one of the main men for systematic P.1907 studies!

 

Dave,

Modesty precludes me from a direct response to Trajan’s kind words!

However, you too can join our mutual admiration society.

Just send one or more cases of Newcastle Brown Ale to Hadrian’s Wall (the third fort from the North Sea).

Regards,

JMB

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27 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

 

Dave,

Modesty precludes me from a direct response to Trajan’s kind words!

However, you too can join our mutual admiration society.

Just send one or more cases of Newcastle Brown Ale to Hadrian’s Wall (the third fort from the North Sea).

Regards,

JMB

Quite happy with the Newcastle brown bit....as long as I don't have to send the Guiness, Stella or old speckled hen....only time I ever follow doctors orders, they keep telling us to keep hydrated in the current heat!😄🍺

kind regards to you both,

Dave.

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On ‎26‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 21:07, peregrinvs said:

It reminds me of the WWII German S.84/98 service bayonets with engraved markings that are generally acknowledged in bayonet collecting circles as being postwar fantasy pieces. My initial guess is that it's something somebody had made up out of a standard P1907 bayonet long after WWI.

Ancient history.

 

Back in the 1970s, there were etched bayonets coming from Belgium. Initial German WW2 98s then latter P1907s, polished and heavily etched as presentation bayonets. These were genuine bayonets, very fine examples, reworked as souvenirs for the "veteran association" market. They were not "fakes" or "fantasy", but the etching was newly carried out. Certainly by the late 70's the german bayonets were being passed off as wartime presentation bayonets, which was utter rubbish.

 

I am quite certain that this is one of these bayonets, even though I have not looked at one for many years. A genuine P1907, Enfield bayonet, dressed up as a display piece about the mid 1970s by the commercial market to sell to any purchaser (serving member, former member or civilian) who wanted a display item linking them to the regiment.

 

Was the design of the etching endorsed by the British Army or the specific regiment ? - most unlikely. Were they ever sold through the regiment's association ? - I simply do not know. Certainly, in this period the Australian Army's newspaper carried advertisements from retailers selling the official patterns of swords to anyone who wanted to buy them. Similarly of the two main military outfitters in Sydney, the one mainly used by Army officers was selling these P1907 bayonets at that time, although only marked to British Regiments. 

Cheers

Ross

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  • 1 month later...
On 05/08/2018 at 17:38, JMB1943 said:

...Just send one or more cases of Newcastle Brown Ale to Hadrian’s Wall (the third fort from the North Sea).

 

Well, JMB, be aware that the brew it 'cross the Tyne in Gateshead these days, so not quite the same as before. But why send it to Condercum (if you mean HW after Pons Aelius added) or Vindobala? :unsure:

 

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On 06/08/2018 at 05:50, Chasemuseum said:

... Back in the 1970s, there were etched bayonets coming from Belgium. Initial German WW2 98s then latter P1907s, polished and heavily etched as presentation bayonets. These were genuine bayonets, very fine examples, reworked as souvenirs for the "veteran association" market. They were not "fakes" or "fantasy", but the etching was newly carried out. Certainly by the late 70's the german bayonets were being passed off as wartime presentation bayonets, which was utter rubbish. ... 

 

Thanks for that info Ross - I was well aware of the German pieces but knew nowt about the P.1907 ones. Any chance of seeing a copy of one of the advertisments in Australia you mention?

 

Trajan

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On ‎08‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 16:35, trajan said:

 

Thanks for that info Ross - I was well aware of the German pieces but knew nowt about the P.1907 ones. Any chance of seeing a copy of one of the advertisments in Australia you mention?

 

Trajan

Sorry, cannot help. The ads for P1907s were in the Army weekly newspaper back in the 70s. Never bothered keeping any copies. There were also a couple of glossy magazines back at the same period, "Pix" and "Post" that used to carry a few militaria ads -only ever read those magazines whilst waiting in a barber shop. The K98 bayonet ads appeared in some issues of those but these were the less scrupulous ads, passing the bayonets off as genuine wartime presentation bayonets.

Cheers

Ross

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