MikeyH Posted 22 June , 2018 Share Posted 22 June , 2018 (edited) Have recently discovered via. a cousin in the U.S.A. who is researching our shared family history, that a distant relative serving in the American Army was 'killed in France in W.W.1.' His name Sgt. Andy Shagran, youngest son of Charles Shagran and Catherine Shagran/Hill. Anyone know how I can find anything further? Mike. Edited 22 June , 2018 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 22 June , 2018 Share Posted 22 June , 2018 https://www.abmc.gov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 June , 2018 Share Posted 22 June , 2018 The ABMC site only lists those graves under the care of the ABMC which, unlike the CWGC is only a fraction of the US casualties (many sets of remains being repatriated and buried in private plots). I do not see a listing for Shagran in the ABMC database. Do you know which state Sgt Shagran was living in in the US. That might help some. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 22 June , 2018 Share Posted 22 June , 2018 On the 1920 census, the family name is spelt as Shagran. Prior to that, it seems to appear as Shagren. Your man appears to have served as Sgt. Andrew Charles Shagren, Company K, 315th Infantry. His draft registration card shows that he was born 21/10/1895. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 June , 2018 Share Posted 22 June , 2018 (edited) I may have found him. Andrew C. Shagran. Sgt Co K, 315 Infantry, 79th Infantry Division, AEF. Killed in action Nov 4/5 1918 - Hill 378 See p245 - History of the 79th Infantry Division HERE Chris Edited 22 June , 2018 by 4thGordons ad pic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 22 June , 2018 Share Posted 22 June , 2018 (edited) He left the US 09/07/1918 from Hoboken, New Jersey, and appears in several newspapers in early December 1918, so he must have died towards the very end of the fighting. I haven't found a date of death so far. He appears on a US transport from Antwerp, Belgium to Hoboken, NJ on 20/09/1921 and was buried 18/10/1921 at Glenside, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania Edited 22 June , 2018 by IPT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 22 June , 2018 Share Posted 22 June , 2018 How did he die in France and go home on a transport? Do we have the correct idenification of this man? Is there a good database of USA KIA in the Great War? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 22 June , 2018 Share Posted 22 June , 2018 2 minutes ago, laughton said: How did he die in France and go home on a transport? Do we have the correct idenification of this man? I assume that his body was repatriated in 1921? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 June , 2018 Share Posted 22 June , 2018 1 minute ago, laughton said: How did he die in France and go home on a transport? Do we have the correct idenification of this man? Is there a good database of USA KIA in the Great War? Repatriation of mortal remains, very common in the US context all the way to 1922/3 There is no comprehensive database of US casualties. There is the ABMC and there are state by state and county rosters and there was a 3 volume book "Soldiers of the Great War" published in the early 20s but all have gaps. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 23 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 23 June , 2018 (edited) Chris, Richard and IPT, Very many thanks for your much appreciated assistance, he was from Penn., sad that he was killed so close the the Armistice. Will advise Will, my cousin, another piece of family history discovered. Mike. Edited 23 June , 2018 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 23 June , 2018 Share Posted 23 June , 2018 (edited) Knowing little about the American's in the Great War, other from "The Lost Battalion" or "Fly Boys", I had to look up where they were at the time. They were close to Verdun, so much further south and probably working closer with the French Army. They were to the northwest of where the 77th Division was lost in the Argonne Forest (see link to video below). The men of the 79th Division were burying their dead in the Boise de Consenvoye, where Andy Shagran would have fallen, so at some time in the future they must have returned to exhume and repatriate the dead. Bois de Consenvoye, France, November 8, 1918. Americans burying their dead. Here is the location where they were on an overview map from Google Earth: This shows the area relative to where the Lost Battalion was located in the Argonne Forest, a month earlier: This is a good summary of the politics of the repatriation process: https://rememberingwwi.villanova.edu/war-dead/ If you have not seen the movie, it is worth the watch. I have it on DVD but it is also on You Tube. They took down the YouTube version - this was posted: Quote The YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement." There are some other versions on-line so just GOOGLE "The Lost Battalion". I won't post it here if it is a copyright issue. Edited 7 November , 2018 by laughton copyright issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 6 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 6 November , 2018 (edited) Almost 100 years to the day of the death of Sgt. Andrew Shagran, my cousin Will has sent some copies of papers from the U.S.A. relating to Andy's service in the 315th Infantry. The account of the circumstances of his death by fellow Sergeant Joseph Kilroy give an idea of the conditions on Hill 378 on the 4th and 5th November 1918. Andrew's Army registration card, shows that he had previously worked for the U.S. Government as an Inspector of Ordnance at Burkett and Hayward in Baltimore. This company had several plants engaged in munitions manufacture in that city. He was 21 when he enlisted and 22 when he died on the 7th November. Mike. Edited 7 May , 2019 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 7 November , 2018 Share Posted 7 November , 2018 Fascinating letter - and typed by a Sergeant. So |Kilroy" existed even in 1919? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 6 May , 2019 Share Posted 6 May , 2019 I am a bit tied up at the moment but will try and send relevant mapping showing locations today. The 315th Regiment AEF has a very fine memorial above Sivry; quite controversial, as Pershing wanted it demolished - he was not at all keen on regimental memorials (not wildly enthusiastic about divisional ones, for that matter). The 316th's memorials has wonderful views west across the Meuse - Montfaucon, for example, is clearly visible from it, but you can see far beyond that, to the Argonne Forest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 6 May , 2019 Share Posted 6 May , 2019 OK. Here is a pix of the 315th Memorial (recently restored), which is on the western edge of 'Cornwilly' (or 'Corn Willy') Hill; and a view from the western side of it, looking across the Meuse, to Montfaucon (the Memorial stands out quite clearly, centre) and beyond, on the right, to the northern end of the Argonne forest. There is a section of the ABMC map, showing the activity of the 79th Division at the end of the war; and a modern map, both annotated. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 6 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2019 15 hours ago, CharlieBohn said: Mike - I too am a relative of Andrew Shagren. My grandmother was his niece and often spoke of her favorite uncle. I’ve visited his grave in Pennsylvania - it’s not far from my home. He is buried beside his parents (my great grandparents). I’d love to connect with you directly and perhaps we can share more information! Charlie, All the research into Andrew was carried out by my Cousin Will Hill. He is based in Lansdale PA and has collected a large amount of data on the Hill family in America. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 6 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2019 (edited) On 06/05/2019 at 09:25, nigelcave said: I am a bit tied up at the moment but will try and send relevant mapping showing locations today. The 315th Regiment AEF has a very fine memorial above Sivry; quite controversial, as Pershing wanted it demolished - he was not at all keen on regimental memorials (not wildly enthusiastic about divisional ones, for that matter). The 316th's memorials has wonderful views west across the Meuse - Montfaucon, for example, is clearly visible from it, but you can see far beyond that, to the Argonne Forest. Nigel, Many thanks for your interesting maps and photos. Have recently read 'With Their Bare Hands' by Gene Fax, which covers the Mountfaucon action in great detail. Mike. Edited 7 May , 2019 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 6 May , 2019 Share Posted 6 May , 2019 You'll have spotted the deliberate mistake, 316th it should be (the Memorial) on the maps etc. You might find Marten Otte's two Battleground Europe books of interest - the first is on the Meuse-Argonne, the break out; and the other is on Montfaucon only. His next is on St Mihiel (due out in the autumn) and then he will be turning his attention to Meuse-argonne Part !!, i.e. from mid October to the Armistice, which would include the fighting on the right bank, including the 79th Div. It is a beautiful part of the world and a very 'quiet' battlefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 6 May , 2019 Share Posted 6 May , 2019 (edited) Cracking photos Nigel; I've got one looking back from the top of the memorial but yours gives you a remarkable view of how strong the position was, and as you say how lovely and peaceful the area is today. Thanks for posting. Pete. Edited 6 May , 2019 by Fattyowls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 8 May , 2019 Share Posted 8 May , 2019 If only there was somewhere you could stand at Verdun and get a similar long view! Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 April , 2020 Share Posted 18 April , 2020 Mike, Found this post today... your distant cousin was buried in the same wartime cemetery as my great uncle (louis radlof - Grave 80) In the image attached: Grave 43 Andrew C. Shagren 1785662. Image is available at the US National Archive. You can also find it here: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=aeea8c48cdb04ddc9d5815e82abd3174&extent=-36789.6785%2C5985179.2825%2C1088363.3779%2C6608905.4333%2C102100 zoom in north of Verdun - look for COTE 338 and 361 - just north of Molleville Fme you see B-219. Click on it for data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 25 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 25 April , 2020 Soarer, Very many thanks for the most interesting links, I have spent some time roaming the maps, the nearest I will get to getting out and about at the moment! Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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