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Understanding British Army ww1 Medal Rolls Index Cards


LJG13

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I believe the attached Card belongs to a relative. Can someone please tell me if the details show he was only stationed in India or did he fight on the European front as well. 'Our' Charles joined the 6th Middlesex Regiment in 1906 service no. 4173, transferring the same year to 1st Batt. West Riding Regt. in 1911 census he was stationed in India (Ambala?). How can I prove the other service numbers refer to the same chap. I know MGC related to ther Machine Gun Corp and the West Riding Corp. As you will see the card has a strike through IND.GS -what does this sentence mean? What other information could I glean from this card?

Any ideas gratefully received.

Thanks

Linda

1914 Charles Henry (poss).jpg

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Welcome to the forum Linda.

I suggest you start by reading this

 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/

 

which should give you some answers

 

Michelle 

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Linda

 

It stands for India General Service Medal with the clasps Aghanistan and North West Frontier. It appears he forfeited the medal because he deserted.

 

As far as the rest of the card in concerned he probably served in the machine gun section of his battalion of the West Riding Regiment and was transferred the Motor Machine Gun Service. 

 

3rd Battery were sent out to India in January 1918 and were stationed at Ambala. They took part in the 3rd Afghan War in 1919 and were stationed at Kohat.

 

His last number is a seven figure one which indicates he stayed in the army post war.

 

TR

Edited by Terry_Reeves
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HI

 

I think it says deleted, because it was already on another roll as after that it says (appears on 17560/31)

Then underneath that is authority with some code to relate to it.

As he only got the British War Medal, he did not serve in Europe.

As suggested last number is post WW1, so his records may still be at MOD, getting them would answer most of your questions.

 

regards

 

Robert

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Ancestry Campaign Medals for IGSM (WO100/480) has him listed originally under his 8721 number, 1st DOW Regt. but on MGC roll. This is the line crossed through (roll 17588) as he was already listed on page 31 of roll 17560. There is a remark that his 7 digit No. is for 11th A M Bty.

 

Being ancestry he is listed under 'Battle of Waterloo' as they think the roll is WO100/14.

 

Not sure how to find roll 17560 via ancestry, Ancestry library edition playing up and can't navigate.

 

TEW

 

There's also a Delhi Durbar roll to a J Gardener #8721 1st West Ridings. Perhaps another man?

Edited by TEW
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Thank you all for your replies.

I have been very busy following up all the leads but have only more questions.

I have Charles's original Attestation papers when he first joined up on 1906 ( family details are correct) however after that little things just don't add up or have been recorded wrongly - ie. for the Dehli Durbar we have 'J' Gardner ( not C.H. or Gardener). The GRO confirms he was born in 1889 not 1888 - transcription error by MOD?  You quote an MIC reference  to a C.Gardiner 8721 but here he is a Corporal but the Machine Gun Corp medals roll of 1921 lists Charles Henry as a private.

Could you please explain this comment - (sorry I'm not good at abbreviations) what part of the Regiment would this be?

On 22/06/2018 at 13:49, TEW said:

11th A M Bty.

How can I follow up on post ww1 Army records to find out when he might have been 'de-mobbed' or if his unit shipped back to the UK?  It's a 3 year wait for the 1921 census which might answer all my questions.

Linda

 

 

 

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Hi Linda,

 

3 hours ago, LJG13 said:

The GRO confirms he was born in 1889 not 1888 - transcription error by MOD?

 

I think that there might well be an error in the year date.

 

His 4173 Middlesex Regiment record indicates that he transferred to the West Riding Regiment around 17th October 1906. Looking at the medal index card you posted, and cross referencing to Paul Nixon's service number website, the 8721 number (from the 1st/2nd Battalion sequencing) dates from between 8th February 1906 and 25th January 1907. Looking at just a couple of near number men who do have surviving service papers:

 

8716 Hirst - "service reckons from" 14th October 1906

8721

8726 Crossfield - attested 24th October 1906. "joined" at Halifax 28th October 1906

 

So the dates would seem to reasonably tie in.

 

In the 1911 census there is a 22 year old Charles Henry Gardener (born in Battersea) serving in India with the 1st Battalion West Riding Regiment.

 

Ancestry have a school register record for Battersea Park Road School, which shows that they had a pupil called "Chas Hy" Gardener (residence - 50 Longhedge St) who was born 17th September 1889. So, the right day and month compared to the MoD record, but the wrong year (by one). 

 

If I were a gambler, I'd probably take the £30 risk, and get a copy of the (probably heavily weeded) service file.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited by clk
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Perhaps the J Gardener and the C Gardiner are completely different people. But all three men have the same number; 8721 and are all listed as West Riding Regt or Duke Of Wellingtons, which are one and the same thing.

 

So, if you have three men with similar name spelling vartiants and with the same number in the same battalion a little caution is needed in my opinion.

TEW

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The forms back then didn't ask for a date of birth, just an age, so it's quite easy for an error of a year to creep in (see it in all sorts of records, not just army).  Could imagine certain hands writing a J could be confused with a C too.

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Hello  and once again thank you all for your help. 

The school records, 1911 census and Attestation papers of 1906 do all relate to 'my' Charles - I was just hoping that there might have been some other records out there which would detail his later life. At least I have established his indian posting kept him abroad for many years.

I have located other records i.e. Electoral rolls but it seems he didn't return to the Wandworth/Lambeth area, but Charles Henry was very common  (he had an Uncle with the same name) so I need to confirm that anything post war is for the right person to put him in the Family Tree.

Who should I contact to get a copy of his service file ? and are there any war diaries for the Regiment relating to India? - all I can find for the machine gun corps relates to Europe and the western front. 

Linda

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Hi Linda,

 

In the 1939 Register he appears to be at

 

107 Grosvenor Crescent , Uxbridge U.D., Middlesex, England

 

Name                                   DOB                  Sex        Occupation                                    Marital status

Charles H Gardener             07 Sep 1889     Male       Wood Machinist (Heavy Worker)   Married

Mary K Gardener                  30 Jul 1899      Female   Unpaid Domestic Duties                Married

REDACTED RECORD

Kathleen M Cox (Gardner)   04 Mar 1932     Female   At School                                       Single

John H Gardener                 25 Nov 1934     Male       Under School Age                          Single

 

There is a Kathleen M Gardener whose birth was registered in Q2 1932 RD Uxbridge 3a 56. Mothers maiden name is shown as Fassett.

There is a John H Gardener whose birth was registered in Q1 1935 RD Uxbridge 3a 83. Mothers maiden name is shown as Fassett.

 

A Charles H Gardener married a Mary K Fassett in Q1 1931 RD Brentford 3a 170.

 

2 hours ago, LJG13 said:

Who should I contact to get a copy of his service file ? 

 

There is advice here and a helpdesk phone number here. As he was born over 100 years ago, I understand that there is no needed to provide a copy death certificate. The file would likely to be heavily weeded.

 

2 hours ago, LJG13 said:

are there any war diaries for the Regiment relating to India?

 

Unfortunately not. Units serving in India weren't required to keep them.

 

Regards

Chris

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