"Journey's End" - Rank on sleeves or tabs?

[Guest]

  Just been to see the film- pensioner special. Cup of tea and a choccy bic. thrown in. Fantastic.

 

      Thought the film was well done on the trenches- as Taff Gillingham was involved, one would expect nothing less.  But just one query.  Stanhope and Osborne are shown with sleeve ranks on their jackets.   Raleigh-the newcomer-has pips.  Ok, we know that sleeve ranks gave way to pips but was there still as discretion on this in March 1918? Was it just the practicalities of so many officer new jackets?  I had always assumed that  pips supplanted sleeves universally.

 (Thought the performances were very good-especially liked Stephen Graham- usually a soap actor-doing well as the "oik" officer   Lieutenant Trotter- a very good portrayal of a commissioned-up  former NCO)

Edited 20 June , 2018 by Guest

[FROGSMILE]

Shoulder rank did not officially replace cuff rank until the early 1920s and mixed placing was common in many battalions, with longer serving officers being more likely to have at least one jacket with cuff rank and the newer arrivals shoulder rank.  The uniforms in the production are fairly well done I think.

Edited 20 June , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Shoulder rank did not officially replace cuff rank until the early 1920s and mixed placing was common in many battalions, with longer serving officers being more likely to have at least one jacket with cuff rank and the newer arrivals shoulder rank.  The uniforms in the production are fairly well done I think.

 

     Thank you for that. Much appreciated. Though I was unaware that it was not de rigeur until the 1920s.

        Full agree that the production values were well done.   Even Toby Jones behaved himself.

[KGB]

Ummm isn't the play set in 1917?

[BillyH]

Spring Offensive 1918.

 

BillyH.

[nigelcave]

As mentioned in another thread - some tunnelling company's officers appear - from group photos later on in the war - to have been uniformly either with shoulder or with cuff badges of ranks. This does not mean, of course, that there were not tunnelling companies that had a mixture among their officers.

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, nigelcave said:

As mentioned in another thread - some tunnelling company's officers appear - from group photos later on in the war - to have been uniformly either with shoulder or with cuff badges of ranks. This does not mean, of course, that there were not tunnelling companies that had a mixture among their officers.

 

Yes there was undoubtedly great variation Nigel.  I believe that a lot depended upon the commanding officer’s preference/prejudices and whether or not the unit was regular, territorial, or New Army, the difference in attitude could be significant.  Anyone who has read Robert Grave’s ‘Goodbye to all that’ will probably recall how he was castigated publicly by his CO for wearing a ‘wind up’ jacket (shoulder rank) when he joined a regular battalion of his regiment after an attachment to a Service battalion of another regiment.

Edited 20 June , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Anyone who has read Robert Grave’s ‘Goodbye to all that’ will probably recall how he was castigated publicly by his CO for wearing a ‘wind up’ jacket (shoulder rank) when he joined a regular battalion of his regiment after an attachment to a Service battalion of another regiment.

 

And that was in late '15 or early '16, I believe

 

The 1st Battalion, London Scottish never wore shoulder rank badges, and I suspect the 2nd Battalion (when they returned to France) behaved likewise.

[Terry_Reeves]

I'm not sure it really matters, it is a cracking production and that is what counts.

 

TR

[EastSurrey]

A March 1917photograph  & a New Year 1919 photograph, of 9/E.Surrey officers, each show both styles of displaying rank being worn by different officers, although the cuff rank badges seem more common. (see illustrations in 'The Journey's End Battalion', published by P&S.

Michael

[Black]

 

Hello GWF uniform experts,

I've just been watching a DVD of Journey's End (not yet released to theatres here in Australia). In the opening scene the company commander comes out of the farmhouse to take his place at the front of his company on the way to the front line. As the camera follows him from behind, we see a small red, white & blue ribbon in inverted V shape pinned to the back of his tunic just below the collar.

 

Can anyone tell me exactly what this ribbon represents? I've never seen one before.

 

Regards,

Black

 

[WhiteStarLine]

Nothing constructive to add to this thread apart from I watched this movie twice recently - on the long journey to a short deployment in the Middle East Region (fulfilling a very trivial and minor administrative role, I stress!) and on the way back.  I found it moving and very well done and would highly recommend it.

[FROGSMILE]

On 22/06/2018 at 05:22, Black said:

 

Hello GWF uniform experts,

I've just been watching a DVD of Journey's End (not yet released to theatres here in Australia). In the opening scene the company commander comes out of the farmhouse to take his place at the front of his company on the way to the front line. As the camera follows him from behind, we see a small red, white & blue ribbon in inverted V shape pinned to the back of his tunic just below the collar.

 

Can anyone tell me exactly what this ribbon represents? I've never seen one before.

 

Regards,

Black

 

 

It is a battle patch or tactical sign/flash (the terms used vary) and introduced in the lead up to the Somme offensive that commenced 1st July 1916.  The intent was battlefield recognition and within Divisions many Brigades had a variety of shapes and colours on upper arms and upper back to show the identity of battalions and their ‘place’ (seniority according to the Army list) within the formation.

In part this reflected that the wearing of steel helmets without any cap badge made all soldiers and officers look very similar, thus making battlefield progress reporting, when observing through binoculars and telescopes very difficult.  The colours used often related to the ‘regimental ribbon’ that proliferated before the war.  The colours you describe are those of the East Surrey Regiment (albeit dark blue rather than black).   See image, which is purported to have been cut from an East Surrey Regt officer's uniform.

Edited 25 January by FROGSMILE

[EastSurrey]

Private Edward Cole produced caricatures of more than a dozen of the battalion's officers in early 1917. Captain Robert Anslow is the only one clearly wearing these ribbons-two of them--on the back of the collar.They look to be black-yellow-red, and red-yellow-black.  Anslow had been with the battalion from the time it first arrived in France - 31.8.15. The caricatures, held by Surrey History Centre,  are illustrated in colour in my two articles on Cole's caricatures, in 'Stand To!', nos.101 and 102.

(Officers portrayed in tunics, as opposed to raincoats, including Anslow, are wearing battle patches on their arms- a green cross for the battalion, representing its brigade in 24th Division  and seniority within  that brigade, and a coloured diamond if a company officer. These were introduced in mid 1916. The green cross changed  in early 1918, when 72nd Brigade was reorganised .)

Michael

[gordon92]

On 20/06/2018 at 10:49, Steven Broomfield said:

 

And that was in late '15 or early '16, I believe

 

The 1st Battalion, London Scottish never wore shoulder rank badges, and I suspect the 2nd Battalion (when they returned to France) behaved likewise.

The 9th (Glasgow Highland) Battalion HLI retained cuff rank jackets until 1939.

[Steven Broomfield]

Quite right too!

[Black]

Many thanks to FROGSMILE for his response regarding the colour flash worn on the back of the uniform.

 

Black

 

 

[Captain Croft]

A couple of side notes ;
Generals and above wore shoulder pips right from the start of the war.
Although the incorrectly nicknamed "17 pattern" was a permitted option from 1917 onward it really wasn't popular and was nicknamed the "Wind-up" jacket (as in wind in the willows, not winding a clock) because you were thought to "have your wind up" (to be nervous) if you wore one. It was also seen as improper by many general ranks who thought it was mimicking their uniform.

[FROGSMILE]

It had been decided in 1902, when service dress was introduced that general officers would continue to wear shoulder strap rank on their version, just as they had on the predecessor garment, the patrol frock. Likewise, the Household troops of the Sovereign’s personal Body Guard.  There was nothing new about that and it was, in effect, a demarcation of status, and between elites.

Edited 9 July , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Wexflyer]

Putting two and two together, it would would seem that all British general officers had the "wind up" for the duration of the Great War.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Wexflyer said:

Putting two and two together, it would would seem that all British general officers had the "wind up" for the duration of the Great War.

 

A very good point that amply demonstrates the ridiculously pejorative implication that a particular type of jacket indicated a measure of courage!