PHalsall Posted 15 June , 2018 Share Posted 15 June , 2018 I hope someone can help with this one. I have put together a reasonably full account of my grandfather's experiences in WWi, but cannot determine when, where he was taken prisoner by the Turks, or where he was held captive. I do know that he survived and escaped in 1918. His name was James Irwin, 1/4 Btn Cheshire Regiment. Served first at Sulva Bay and then moved over to the Imperial Camel Corps. Anecdotal accounts say he was taken prisoner perhaps 1 year or so before the end of the war. His original serial number was 1348, which changed to 200141. His date of birth was 23rd Oct 1895. Ive treid the Red Cross site and Ancestry with no joy and would be delighted if anyone can help solve this mystery. Much appreciated Pete Halsall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 15 June , 2018 Share Posted 15 June , 2018 LCpl James Irwin was first reported missing in the Daily Casualty List of 8/1/18. He was subsequently confirmed as PoW of the Turkish in the Daily List 6/4/18. So I would presume he first went missing at least a month earlier than the Jan 1918 date. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 15 June , 2018 Share Posted 15 June , 2018 I cannot find a James Irwin on the ICRC PoW records for Turkish Prisoners; because he escaped perhaps he was never properly listed by the Turks. Or perhaps his record is mis-spelt or mis-filed. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 15 June , 2018 Share Posted 15 June , 2018 Pete, Sorry, should have said welcome! Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 15 June , 2018 Share Posted 15 June , 2018 (edited) I wonder if this chap was captured with Col Newcombe 55 minutes ago, PHalsall said: but cannot determine when, where he was taken prisoner by the Turks, about the 2nd November 1917, on the Hebron road, north of Dhahriye Steve Becker should know all the details see also Military Operations E & P June '17 to end of War, part I, p.82/3 Edited 15 June , 2018 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 15 June , 2018 Share Posted 15 June , 2018 These men of the Cheshires were on the same List of Missing reported 8/1/18. I am checking ICRC to see if any are on their records but i suspect not. eg Baker was subsequently reported PoW in Turkish hands but as this Enquiry Card on ICRC shows, he was not found on any ICRC lists. Note that he went missing Gaza 1/11/17 and was also a Cheshires/ ICC : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 15 June , 2018 Share Posted 15 June , 2018 26 minutes ago, charlie962 said: I am checking ICRC to see if any are on their records but i suspect not. Apart from Baker, only Mathews was listed and his name was on a repatriation list (x2) showing he too was a 1/7th ICC man as well as Cheshires. But no apparent date of capture. charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 16 June , 2018 Share Posted 16 June , 2018 Mate, I did a check and could not find your relations name on my lists, so I 'll add him as finding these men men has been a problem. These men I have confirmed Geraghty Cliff N/R Pte possibly 5Co att Newcombes Force PoW 3-11-17 reported captured at Daharryeh on the Hebron road shown in Rory Moore's news letter Jones N/R N/R Pte possibly 5Co att Newcombes Force PoW 3-11-17 reported captured at Daharryeh on the Hebron road shown in Rory Moore's news letter Parker DR N/R Pte 26 MG Sqn (265 MG Co) possibly att Newcombes Force PoW 3-11-17 captured at Daharryeh on the Hebron road Ex 1/3 Scottish Horse reported convert to 26 MG Sqn 10-16 Whittaker Alfred Lewis 2409 Pte 5Co att Newcombes Force PoW 3-11-17 reported captured at Daharryeh on the Hebron road Ex Herefordshire Regt (2409) (235753) died 11-7-1987 shown in Rory Moore's news letter Thorogood Frederick John 13316 Pte att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt to 1/4 Cheshire Regt (62979) Painter Reginald Walter Richard 13578 Pte att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1Bn Gloucester Regt (9814) WIA 4-11-14 F&B to 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (13578) to 1/4 Cheshire Regt (62978) Irwin James 200141 Pte possibly 5Co ICC possibly att Newcombes Force captured at Daharryeh on the Hebron road Ex 1/4 Cheshire (1348) Baker James 291586 Pte 5Co ICC reported PoW 1-11-17 possibly att Newcombes Force captured at Daharryeh on the Hebron road Ex 1/4 Cheshire (4419) Bunbury Douglas St Pierre Lt possibly Tos 5Co 5-16 to Capt OC 5Co (from Wilson) 2-4-17 shown on Sena Raid 8-17 WIA 3-11-17 & PoW 3-11-17 captured at Daharryeh on the Hebron road att Newcombes Force Ex Somali CC to 8 Res Cav Regt later Basutoland Mounted Police South Africa died 1950 related Henry St Pierre Bunbury 21st Regt British Army & explorer in NSW Tas & WA of whom the city of Bunbury WA is named involved in the "pacification" of the Avon valley notorious for his extensive collection of Aboriginal ears North-West Frontier of India in 1849 and the Crimean war retired 1862 Born 1812 died 1875 father the late Gen AC Bunbury Bengal Staff Miller William 2/Lt Tos 5Co 27-4-17 to T/Adjt 2Bn HQ (from Tod) 5-17 possibly att Newcombes Force Ex CSM Rifle Brigade (7568) Some details I have reported (90 men) mixed force under Col Newcombe with part (70 men) under Capt Bunbury from 5Co ICC & 16 men from 21Bn London Regt (60th Div) & 5 men from 20th MGS + arab scouts/guides 27-10-17 Col Newcombe's force made up 2 vickers guns and 8 Lewis guns of 2 officers 16 NCo's from Advance School of Instruction , 5 men from 20th MG Sqn and 3 sigs from 5th Co were ordered to Gamli Station on 28 Oct 30-10-17 mixed force under Col Newcombe moved to cut the Beersheba-Hebron road 2/6-11-17 reported mixed force under Col Newcombe all killed or surrendered north of Kuweilfeh at Daharryeh on the Beersheba- Hebron road Col Newcombe's force has been written about in most books on this subject. The 5th Company was raised 26-5-16 5Co under Capt Wilson (53 Div (Welsh) - (158 Bde - 1/1 Hereford, 1/5 to 1/7 Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 159 Bde - 1/4 & 1/6 Cheshire & 1/4 & 1/5 Welsh Regt, & 160 Bde - Monmouth, 1/4 Sussex, 2/4 Royal West Kent, 2/10 Middlesex & 2/4 Queens West Surrey Regt) arrived ICC depot (5Co war dairy also shows 1/6 Essex Regt 30-7-16 5Co 1/2 under Capt Wilson moved to Moghara to Alamein (Lt's Brodie (2ic), -Bunbury -Streeter -Adams -possibly Brook) 31-7-16 5Co 1/2 under Lt Brodie to Wadi Natrun joined with No 5 LCP (Lt Williams Ex Pembroke Yeo) 21-8-16 5Co under Capt Wilson (4 officers 115 men 140 camels) moved from Wadi Natrun and Moghara to El Ferdan 29-8-16 war diary 5Co shows replaced 10Co at Bir el Bayud 10Co moved to Kharga Oasis 14-9-16 1st Camel Bn 4Co & 7Co with 5Co & 6Co to rest at Mageibra 17-9-16 1st Camel Bn at Battle of Mazar 1st Camel Bn (4Co 5Co 6Co 7Co) & HK&SMB 12-10-16 mixed force mustered at Bayud for Moghara operation 1st Camel Bn under Maj Langley (4Co 5Co 6Co 12Co) + RE Sect + sect HK&SMB + Sig Sect & RFC report centre + Wireless Sig sect + Medical Sect + SAA Column & Camel transport (CTC) with Comp LH Bde (11 LHR 12 LHR 1/1 City of London Yeo + MG sect 160 Bde) 14-10-16 action at Moghara 1st Camel Bn (4Co 5Co 6Co 12Co) & sect HK&SMB 28-12-16 Battle at Magdhaba Camel Bde HQ BrigGen Smith VC Bde/Maj Stocker 1st Battalion LtCol Langley 4th Co Capt Denson 2ic Capt Mills 6th British Co Capt Pettit Adjt Capt Goldenstedt 7th British Co Capt Gregory 12th Co Capt Smith 2nd British Battalion Maj Bassett 3rd Co Capt Naylor 2ic 5th British Co Capt Wilson Adjt Lt Pape 14th Co Capt Tolmer 3rd Anzac Battalion Maj Huddlestone 1st Co Lt Cashman 2ic Capt Donovan 11th Co Capt Creswell Adjt Capt Tod 15th NZ Co Capt McCallum HK&S Batty Maj Moore 2/1 Cheshire Field Troop RE Lt Drake RE 1/1st Welsh FAmb unknown There are more to this but I Hope this helps S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 16 June , 2018 Share Posted 16 June , 2018 (edited) Mate, As to the other mention I have no other details on them but they do fall into the men reported lost on that operation? Boote John 13649 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt to 1/4 Cheshire Regt (63025) Dewison John 290806 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (2865) Harris George 13681 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt to 1/4 Cheshire Regt (63029) Harrop Ernest 200621 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (2439) Matthews Horace 290062 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (1293) McGee Charles 24822 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt reported as (201677) Poyer David J 13629 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt to 1/4 Cheshire Regt (63032) The others on the list are mentioned above These are all the Cheshire Regt men I have on record;; Thomas George 2093 Pte possibly 5Co? ICC Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (2093) and Hussars/Dorset Yeo (231668) WIA 8-10-15 at Galliopli Thorogood Frederick John 13316 Pte att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt to 1/4 Cheshire Regt (62979) Painter Reginald Walter Richard 13578 Pte att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1Bn Gloucester Regt (9814) WIA 4-11-14 F&B to 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt (13578) to 1/4 Cheshire Regt (62978) Poyer David J 13629 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt to 1/4 Cheshire Regt (63032) Boote John 13649 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt to 1/4 Cheshire Regt (63025) Harris George 13681 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt to 1/4 Cheshire Regt (63029) McGee Charles 24822 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt reported as (201677) Lawrence Herbert 50068 Pte possibly not ICC? or Tos 6Co 5-16 Ex 1/1 Cheshire Yeo (989) to Cheshire Regt Clarke Leonard 51067 L/Cpl BHQ WIA 19-4-17 shoulder at 2nd Gaza shrapnel WIA 21-4-17 buttock reported bombed in air attack near El Kutshan to Sgt MID - reason not stated Ex 1/7 Cheshire Regt (2160) and Hussars Broome John 51068 L/Cpl Tos 5Co 5-17 ICC Ex 1/7 Cheshire Regt (1411) and (290099) to Royal Engineers (447373) Carter George 51069 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex Cheshire Regt (3863) and Hussars Cocker Walter 51070 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex Cheshire Regt (2144) and Hussars Dixon Joseph 51071 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (2672) and Hussars Fletcher Harry 51072 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex Cheshire Regt (291260) and Hussars Jones Edwin 51073 Pte 5Co? ICC 5Co? Ex Cheshire Regt (291492) and Hussars Minshull Frank 51074 Pte Tos 5Co? 5-16 ICC Ex Cheshire Regt (2734) and Hussars possibly brother Percy Swindells Harry 51075 Pte 5Co? ICC Ex Cheshire Regt (1782) and Hussars Towley William 51076 Pte 5Co? ICC Ex Cheshire Regt (1953) and Hussars Thompson Harold 51077 Pte 5Co? ICC Ex Cheshire Regt (2440) and Hussars Townsend Arthur 51078 Pte 5Co? ICC Ex Cheshire Regt (2811) and Hussars Favager Reginald 51079 A/Cpl 5Co? ICC? Ex Cheshire Regt (1258) and Hussars Howarth Jacob 51081 Cpl 5Co? ICC Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (4558) later (78169) Farrar Norman 51082 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (1579) and Hussars WIA 24-9-15 at Gallipoli Goodacre Albert E. 51082 L/Cpl 5Co? ICC? Ex Cheshire Regt (1415) and Hussars Hargreaves John 51084 Pte 5Co? ICC Ex Cheshire Regt (27123) and Hussars Ellis Edward B. 51085 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex Cheshire Regt (1406) and Hussars Jennings John 51086 Pte Tos possibly 5Co? 5-16 to 6Co WIA 9-1-17 at Rafa Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (201713) and Hussars Price James 51088 Pte 5Co? ICC Ex Cheshire Regt (3050) and Hussars Barnes John 51090 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex Cheshire Regt (25701) and Hussars Clark James E 51093 Pte 5Co Ex 1 Gar Bn Royal Warwick Regt and Cheshire Regt (14111) to Suffolk Regt (70695) Webster Edward B 51105 Pte 5Co? ICC Ex Cheshire Regt (3295) to Royal Engineers (WR/195528) Selby George 51182 Pte possibly 5Co? to 9Co MM - possibly at Amman Ex Cheshire Regt (1528) and Hussars Chapman John 51185 Pte 7Co? ICC Ex Essex Regt (2229) to Cheshire Regt (78168) Irving William 51201 Pte 5Co ICC? Ex Cheshire Regt (3553) to Hussars Corke John 51306 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex Cheshire Regt (4059) and Hussars Henson Leonard C 51317 Pte shown possibly tos 5Co or 8Co ICC? 3-18 Ex Manchester Regt (3195) and Cheshire Regt (81687) to Liverpool Regt (242915) Olive James 51341 Pte 5Co? ICC Ex Cheshire Regt (37682) and Hussars Hughes Frederick 51342 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex 1/1 Cheshire Regt (46035) and Hussars Davies Sydney 51343 Pte shown possibly tos 5Co ICC? 3-18 Ex Cheshire Regt (46434) and Liverpool Regt (72949) Baxter Harold 51378 Pte 5Co? ICC? Ex Cheshire Regt (10933) and Hussars Irwin James 200141 L/Cpl possibly 5Co ICC possibly att Newcombes Force captured at Daharryeh on the Hebron road Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (1348) Harrop Ernest 200621 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (2439) Matthews Horace 290062 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (1293) Dewison John 290806 Pte possibly att 5Co 7-17 att Newcombes Force Pow 2-11-17 Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (2865) Baker James 291586 Pte 5Co ICC reported PoW 1-11-17 possibly att Newcombes Force captured at Daharryeh on the Hebron road Ex 1/4 Cheshire Regt (4419) Chadfield Arnold Lt ICC att ICC depot 10-18 shown Tos 3 sect 5Co 11-18 Ex 19Bn Royal Fusiliers (6114) and 2/Lt 3Bn Cheshire Regt Worth Alexander 2/Lt Tos 9Co 3-18 Ex Sgt 1/1 Cheshire Yeo (511) prom 2/Lt Durham Lt Inf to Cheshire Regt Cheers S.B Edited 16 June , 2018 by stevebecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 16 June , 2018 Share Posted 16 June , 2018 (edited) If this man was captured with Col Newcombe, then the aerial photograph seen below will be of interest. It was taken at 600m over Edh-Dhahiriya by the German Squadron 303 at 07:30 hrs on 2nd November 1917, and it “...may document Turkish activities related to that attack (on Newcombe's force): it shows a large number of men near the regularly laid out buildings east of the road” The photograph appears in Benjamin J Kedar's book 'The Changing Land Between the Jordan and the Sea' published 1999 [ISBN 965-05-0975-5]. Prof. Kedar attributes the picture the collection of Prof Karl Heinrich Rengstorf (by the time of publication, the photograph was in the care of the Dept of Geography – Aerial Photography Unit, the Hebrew University of Jerusalem) Edited 16 June , 2018 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHalsall Posted 16 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 16 June , 2018 What can I say? I am overwhelmed by the rapid and detailed response to my query. Thank you all very much. I can add that he was definitely in the 5th Company, should have mentioned that earlier. I do hope those other guys captured got home too. Jame Irwin eventually escaped, I believe with another man, both were dressed in arab clothing as a disguise and found their way back to friendly troops somehow. Details of that trip are lost other than that it involved travelling on the roof of a train at some point. He married and had three children after the war and now has about 50 plus descendants, so at least this story had a happy ending! He has a surviving son and daughter in their nineties and I understand that one of them has telegrams that he sent home. If I can locate those I will let you know of any interest there. I don't suppose there is anyway of finding out where he was kept prisoner? Perhaps that's asking too much... Michaeldr - that ariel photograph is amazing, much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 16 June , 2018 Share Posted 16 June , 2018 2 minutes ago, PHalsall said: I believe with another man Interesting story. I don't suppose you know any more about the other man? Name, unit, date of escape? Sometimes escapers received awards. I note that James Irwin was already MiD 28/1/16. If he succede in escaping then there ought to be mention somewhere in a unit history or a local paper. As I said I couldn't see Irwin's name in ICRC Prisoner records but another forumite might know the usual chain. Having looked at the Mespot pows of the Turks, there was a multitude of possible prison and work camps and although sometimes men of the same unit managed to stick together in small groups there is no logical progression to follow. You may have more luck trying to find correspondence from fellow prisoners of the Cheshires/ICC with a chance mention of possible camps; perhaps local newspapers received someting or reported for one of the PoW comforts funds? Charlie PS I see another CasualtyList record for 24/12/18 on FindmyPast newspapers but I don't have a sub. It might be about his repatriation ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHalsall Posted 16 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 16 June , 2018 Thanks Charlie, I'll explore those avenues as best I can. I don't have any info on the second escapee, but i will get my hands on the telegrams in a couple of days time and who knows, maybe he was able to get a message home after escaping that might provide something. There certainly are a lot of camps to choose from! Interesting to know that they were often split up, as I had started to consider the possibility that a large group of POWs like this, and including a colonel, might be easier to trace. The casualty list is interesting, i think he may have been home by then, or certainly on his way. The prisoners in his camp had heard rumours that the war was over, and feared that the Turks were not going to let them go, or even kill them hence the imperative to escape. They were helped by someone who provided the clothing, but it also seemed that the Turks were no longer too interested in keeping them so it was an easier time to escape. Ill get back in touch as soon as i have mire info. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 16 June , 2018 Share Posted 16 June , 2018 (edited) Mate, While I have found the 5th Company War dairy, it is not that good at details. Any thing your relation left on his service in the Camel Corps, any names of officers and men or any other details are always interesting. Does he have any photos of his service? If you need more let me know What is misunderstand about Newcombe's force was in ran into the last formation (19th Div) of the Ottoman 15th Corps arriving to reinforce the Beersheba defences, it had been delayed and arrived a day late or it would have been in the defences at Beersheba when we attacked on the 31 Oct 1917. Along with this unit was the 12th Depot Regt (or part of it) which arrived with replacements, but found itself in the front lines All these new Ottoman reinforcements over welmed Newcombes small force before it could do much. Cheers S.B Edited 16 June , 2018 by stevebecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHalsall Posted 17 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 17 June , 2018 Hi Thanks again for the help. I located the war diary for 1/4 Cheshire which as his original unit. That was for Sulva Bay. Not too much in it to be honest, got a lot more from a cracking book titles 'The History of the Cheshire Regiment in the Great War' by Col. Arthur Crookenden. Really enjoyed that one, but apologies for getting off topic. Not seen the 5th Company War Diary, so if you could point a novice in the right direction that would be great. I have a few relatives who might have more including the telegrams and I should be able to explore that in the next few days. Will certainly let you know anything that comes up, however small. That information about the nature of the forces that took them captive is really valuable, thanks, it makes more sense now that so many soldiers were taken prisoner at once. It does provoke one thought. Were Newcombe's force involved in the attack on Beersheba and then moved on to Edh-Dhahiriya, or did they miss out on the Beersheba assault in order to secure the road? Obviously the dates are very close together. One small, but intriguing, question is how a guy ended up in the ICC in the first place, I know it was formed from troops retreating from Gallipoli, and being in a yeomanry Btn meant that at least he could ride a horse which was a head start on mastering the art of a camelier. Neverheless, the British provided such a small number of men to the ICC I wonder how they were selected. It seems to me (as a novice) that many of the yeomanry men who did not join the ICC ended up back on the Western Front (Flanders) in 2018 so in some sense it turned out to be a favourable move to become a camelier! Sorry I keep coming up with more, but its addictive as well as fascinating... that amazing arial photo from michaeldr, its taken at 7:30 am. Am I right in assuming that that is before the incident, and if so is the implication that the ICC guys are going to approach Edh-Dhahiriya from the left (North) as seen here and run into the Ottomans, or would the Ottoman force organise themselves here and move up the road to meet Newcombe at some fixed position further North? Thanks again, you blokes have been amazing Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHalsall Posted 17 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 17 June , 2018 Apologies, re-reading one of your earlier posts you have already answered the question about the Beersheba assault, Newcombe was already moving to cut the road on Oct 30th ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 June , 2018 Share Posted 17 June , 2018 The total absence of any of those men noted by Steve as possible PoWs or Missing from the Turkish notifications to the ICRC is very marked, but not wholly suprising given their chaotic record keeping. The only cards I found were the 2 already noted above (Baker and Mathews) who were either on repatriation list or enquiry by relatives. One further card I found was Lt Bunbury. He is noted as Kedos but this was an officer's camp and wont help us unless he was allowed to take one man as an orderly. I post here for Steve in case he hasn't seen them: Charlie Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 June , 2018 Share Posted 17 June , 2018 (edited) On 16/06/2018 at 03:23, stevebecker said: Parker DR there is a card for this man but suggesting he was PoW long before ? Daniel R Parker, ICC No 971 List R50809 dated 5/7/17. Transfers AfionKH to Yozghad. 'see previous list 31/10/16' This man appeared as missing CasList 23/10/16, Yeomanry attd ICC so maybe there were 2 DR Parkers? Charlie Edited 17 June , 2018 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 June , 2018 Share Posted 18 June , 2018 Mate, so other details 24-11-17 5Co under Capt Reid moves from El Arish to ICC depot Abbassia to reequipt 11-12-17 5Co under Capt Reid (6 officers 156 men 220 camels) left ICC depot for Beersheba arrived 29-12-17 During month 5Co at Beersheba patrols out to Samua and Aslug (Lt's Wilks - Streeter - Kingston - Adams) 30-1-18 patrol under Lt Kingston 5Co to find bodies of Newcomb's force lost or captured at Daharryeh on the Hebron road in Nov 1917 5-2-18 5Co under Capt Reid with Capt Nathan OET (Egyptian Army ECTC) (5 officer 138 men 173 camels + 6 natives ECTC) patrol from Tel el Millar via Beersheba to Kasr Um Baghag on the Dead Sea rtn by 9-2-18 2-3-18 shown 24 men from 20Bn Rifle Bde and 1Bn Kings Liverpool Regt transfered to 5Co at Beersheba Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 June , 2018 Share Posted 18 June , 2018 (edited) Mates, I should have mentioned that the date given for there capture appears to be 1-11-17, most accounts all give the dates 2 Nov or 3 Nov when the remainder of the force was all captured. Capt Bunbury was reported wounded and captured 3 Nov 1917 Charlie Thanks for the little bit on Parker, I had no confirmed date for his capture and I could not identify him? There were no recorded Pow's since those lost at 2nd Gaza in April 1917 so when he was lost and where I was not sure and placed him as a possible capture in Nov 1917 Since the 1/3 Scottish Horse reported convert to 26 MG Sqn 10-16 (Oct 1916) So any help in trying to find what happened to him would be great. Another man from his unit lost around that date was Smith William 557 Pte Tos 7Co 7-16 reported 2 men lost and died of thirst during night march to Bir el Mazar 16/17-9-16 shown KIA 17-9-16 reported convert to 26 MG Sqn (265 MG Co) 10-16 Ex 1/3rd Scottish Horse Yeo The second man was Jess Robert 2298 Pte Tos 7Co 7-16 reported 2 men lost and died of thirst during night march to Bir el Mazar 16/17-9-16 Ex 1/1st Aryshire Yeomanary shown KIA 22-9-16 The 7th Company was shown as, so why Bill Smith shown as 1/3 Scottish Horse is unknown, unless he transfered into the 1/1 Scottish Horse? 4-7-16 new 7Co under Capt Gregorey (1st (Highland Yeomanry) Mtd Bde - 1/1 Scottish Horse, 1/1 Ayrshire, 1/1 Lanark, 1/1 Fife & Forfar, 1/1 & 1/2 Lovat Scouts and Lothians Yeo) arrived ICC depot Cheers S.B Edited 18 June , 2018 by stevebecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 18 June , 2018 Share Posted 18 June , 2018 Daniel Parker ICRC Here is his earlier listing as a PoW Afion KH on List R50309 of 31/10/16 age unit from Taken PoW at Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 18 June , 2018 Share Posted 18 June , 2018 Daniel R Parker is shown as missing on the Daily Casualty List 23/10/16 The other Yeomanry man on that list is W P Smith 657, who was subsequently reported killed. CWGC has him thus: Private SMITH, WILLIAM Service Number 657 Died 17/09/1916 Aged 29 1st/3rd Scottish Horse Son of William and Agnes Smith, of Culdoch, Kirkcudbright. Buried Kantara Cmty, Egypt Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHalsall Posted 18 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2018 Hi Some anecdotal stuff on James Irwin from ageing family members includes that he was captured behind enemy lines and as a PoW set to work on railway construction. Not sure if that helps to locate his PoW camp. He was eventually helped to escape by a Greek, who was not himself a prisoner. Escaped due to rumours that the war was over but the Turks were going to keep them as slave labour. Made his way back to Eygpt. Would often cold his kids and get them upstairs to bed with the repeated expression 'haydi kazalim, haydi sus' - ie keep digging and shut up. That at least indicates his captors were Turks, but no surprise there.. You probably all have this info, but there is an interesting account of Newcombe's force being captured at this location http://shadowofthecrescent.blogspot.com/2011/11/on-this-day-2-november-1917.html#more The author, Kerry Webber is British, and writing an account of Newcombe's life including this incident so he might have info about these forgotten British soldiers in 5th Company for those who are interested in the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 18 June , 2018 Share Posted 18 June , 2018 4 hours ago, PHalsall said: as a PoW set to work on railway construction This is very typical of the work that PoW's of the Turkish were put to. Even those who came out half starving from a 5 month siege at Kut al Amara and were beaten and further starved and maltreated on a 600 mile foot (mostly) march across Mesopotamia and Turkey were made to work on those railways. Quite amazing that some actually survived. The railway concerned was part of the Berlin to Baghdad line, which was incomplete particularly where it crossed the Taurus mountains. It was there that PoWs were put to work making tunnels, cuttings and bridges under German Railway engineer supervision. There are other threads that touch on this. There were a number of camps involved so it doesn't enable us to identify his camp. Typically there were several main camps with satellite working camps. This map (I dont know who to credit) shows rather well the incomplete section in 1916 including Taurus Mts, Amanus Mts and the railhead at Ras Al Ain. Two of the main camps for workers were Adana(Taurus) and Bagtche(Amanus). The lack of railway from Baghdad to Ras al Ain is why the PoWs from Mespot had to go on foot. The map shows how those PoWs taken in Palestine could logically end up working on the railways in Amanus and Taurus Mts. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHalsall Posted 18 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2018 That's a tremendous response Charlie, thanks again. Do you think he (and fellow PoWs) would have been made to walk there? Its about 600 miles... The map is a real find, very clear, and also makes it obvious why his escape 'on the roofs of trains' would be south towards friendly troops in Palestine as the alternative would have been over the mountains to Turkey. Sure glad I've never had to do anything like these poor blokes did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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