mikereme Posted 13 June , 2018 Share Posted 13 June , 2018 Hello Everyone, I am researching my great uncle who according to the battalion diary his Battalion 9th Bn The MGC had been posted to Italy I believe November 1917 - March 1918...The Division was one of five sent to that region during that period....there is a diary of a machine gunner that they were located on the River Piave and had a great time in the early months then they had to return to France [the German spring offensive]. Does anyone in this prestigious group know were the 9th Scottish Division were located on the River Piave..... I know this is long shot but any information will be welcomed.... Please see attached picture it is believed that it was taken in Italy.... I thank you in anticipation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 13 June , 2018 Share Posted 13 June , 2018 Hello Mikereme 9th (Scottish) Division never went to Italy. The two divisions which went there in Nov 1917 and came back in March 1918 were 5th and 41st. The divisions which remained in Italy were 7th, 23rd and 48th. The official Orders of Battle do not indicate that 9th Bn MGC ever went to Italy independently. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 13 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 13 June , 2018 Hello Ron, I can assure you buddy the photo was taken after he returned from Italy...(the reason of my research)....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 13 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 13 June , 2018 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ENGXAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=memoirs+of+a+9th+Division+machine+gunner&source=bl&ots=Y7_YdDeJFr&sig=6X1zEadxH_Le_0MubP0nCCa1Wxg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiI_IOKntHbAhXDvBQKHeDHBxUQ6AEIPDAH#v=onepage&q=memoirs of a 9th Division machine gunner&f=false Page 145 & Page 146 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 13 June , 2018 Share Posted 13 June , 2018 Hi, Whilst I haven’t looked for the WD you quote as your source the attached from the sister site Long Long Trail supports Ron’s response to your query. Other sources say 9th Battalion MGC was only created 1st March 1918? http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/9th-scottish-division/ Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 13 June , 2018 Share Posted 13 June , 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, mikereme said: Hello Ron, I can assure you buddy the photo was taken after he returned from Italy...(the reason of my research)....... I don't dispute that. I can only say that the source you quote in Post 4 differs from the official records, and I would rather take the word of the official records, which include documents at the National Archives, than of any published work of reminiscence. I repeat that there is no official evidence that the 9th Division, the 9th Bn MGC or any of its constituent MG Companies ever served in Italy. The only units whose soldiers wore Scottish bonnets and which served in Italy were the following: 5 Division WO 95/4216 2 Battalion King's Own Scottish Borderers 1917 Dec. - 1918 Mar. 7 Division WO 95/4224 2 Battalion Gordon Highlanders 1917 Dec. - 1919 Feb. Ron Edited 13 June , 2018 by Ron Clifton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 13 June , 2018 Share Posted 13 June , 2018 9Bn MGC diary is on Ancestry from March 18 but it includes no mention to the formation of the unit - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_1757_0-00505?pid=499455&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DTBS51%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DUKWarDiariesWWI%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gskw%3D1757%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3D784%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D18%26h%3D499455%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D19&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=TBS51&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=43112_1757_0-00068 Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 14 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2018 11 hours ago, tullybrone said: Hi, Whilst I haven’t looked for the WD you quote as your source the attached from the sister site Long Long Trail supports Ron’s response to your query. Other sources say 9th Battalion MGC was only created 1st March 1918? http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/9th-scottish-division/ Steve Hi Steve, Yes I believe the Machine Gun companies were formed into Battalions during that period however the companies that supported the division were in place...just that these were formed into Battalion Formations...Same company 26th Machine Gun Company was supporting 26th Highland Bde....but now within the new 9th Bn MGC... 11 hours ago, Ron Clifton said: I don't dispute that. I can only say that the source you quote in Post 4 differs from the official records, and I would rather take the word of the official records, which include documents at the National Archives, than of any published work of reminiscence. I repeat that there is no official evidence that the 9th Division, the 9th Bn MGC or any of its constituent MG Companies ever served in Italy. The only units whose soldiers wore Scottish bonnets and which served in Italy were the following: 5 Division WO 95/4216 2 Battalion King's Own Scottish Borderers 1917 Dec. - 1918 Mar. 7 Division WO 95/4224 2 Battalion Gordon Highlanders 1917 Dec. - 1919 Feb. Ron Ron, Cheers for this buddy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 14 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2018 Gentlemen, Thank you for your input... i suppose the plot thickens with my research...and value all the information you put in... Cheers Guys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 14 June , 2018 Share Posted 14 June , 2018 Just an observation, but if the photo in Post 1 shows the subject with his wife/girlfriend/female relation, I suspect it is highly unlikely to have been taken in Italy. Much more likely at home on leave or pre-deployment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 14 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2018 49 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said: Just an observation, but if the photo in Post 1 shows the subject with his wife/girlfriend/female relation, I suspect it is highly unlikely to have been taken in Italy. Much more likely at home on leave or pre-deployment. Or it could be taken when on break from the front.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 14 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2018 Hi Everyone, I have spoken to the highlanders museum...and the researcher confirmed that the 9th Scottish Div did not go to Italy....but could not confirm any MGC units...with this information it may be that my great uncle was attached to one of the Divisions that went.. to that end could anyone give me locations were these units were located on the River Piave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 14 June , 2018 Share Posted 14 June , 2018 I think in some cases it is back to basics - is there anything documentary which indicates the actual periods he was on Italy or is it on the basis of information passed down through the family as to where he had served ? What is his name / service number ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 14 June , 2018 Share Posted 14 June , 2018 51 minutes ago, mikereme said: Or it could be taken when on break from the front.... As in 'Home on leave' like I said. It might be on a break from the front, but not with a wife/girlfriend/female family member. Do you know who the woman is? 43 minutes ago, mikereme said: Hi Everyone, I have spoken to the highlanders museum...and the researcher confirmed that the 9th Scottish Div did not go to Italy....but could not confirm any MGC units...with this information it may be that my great uncle was attached to one of the Divisions that went.. to that end could anyone give me locations were these units were located on the River Piave? Please don't think I'm being unhelpful, but several people here had already told you the 9th Division didn't go to Italy. If you can supply a name for the chap (as Craig suggests) things may well become a lot easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 14 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: I think in some cases it is back to basics - is there anything documentary which indicates the actual periods he was on Italy or is it on the basis of information passed down through the family as to where he had served ? What is his name / service number ? Craig Craig, Its more of the latter...my mother (in her 90s) was told were she was a young that the Photo was taken after he returned from Italy...(reason for my question)...i put on the link ref the book (my post no 4)... Surname - Williams, First Name - Thomas, Samuel. Service No 36812 Reported Missing 25/0518 Died Of Wounds 26/05/18 Buried in CWGC Kortrijk Edited 14 June , 2018 by mikereme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 14 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said: As in 'Home on leave' like I said. It might be on a break from the front, but not with a wife/girlfriend/female family member. Do you know who the woman is? Please don't think I'm being unhelpful, but several people here had already told you the 9th Division didn't go to Italy. If you can supply a name for the chap (as Craig suggests) things may well become a lot easier. Steve, Am not saying anyone is being unhelpful but with the information (as in post 4) it gave me reason to believe that this was the case....and have just read his post...women unknown....so calm down buddy..! Edited 14 June , 2018 by mikereme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 14 June , 2018 Share Posted 14 June , 2018 (edited) Ah, I think we have something... So, MGC #36812 and earlier #7294 RW Fusiliers as per SDGW. That at least confirms he changed regiment at some point. Medal Rolls lists only the service as #36812 overseas. Effects records confirms 9th Bn MGC at the time of death. Interestingly #36817 Jones, also formerly of the RWF France May - Dec 16 Italy Nov 17 - Apr 18 France Apr 18 - Aug 18 Looks like the service in Italy was with 15Coy MGC (which went with 5th Div to Italy)https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007408581%2f01018&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7408581%2f38%2f1007 #36818 was also ex-RWF I think what we have here is the former RWF men who was assigned to their brigade MG company and then put in to the MGC when it was formed. Craig Edited 14 June , 2018 by ss002d6252 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 14 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2018 6 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: Ah, I think we have something... So, MGC #36812 and earlier #7294 RW Fusiliers as per SDGW. That at least confirms he changed regiment at some point. Medal Rolls lists only the service as #36812 overseas. Effects records confirms 9th Bn MGC at the time of death. Interestingly #36817 Jones, also formerly of the RWF France May - Dec 16 Italy Nov 17 - Apr 18 France Apr 18 - Aug 18 Looks like the service in Italy was with 15Coy MGC (which went with 5th Div to Italy)https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007408581%2f01018&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7408581%2f38%2f1007 #36818 was also ex-RWF I think what we have here is the former RWF men who was assigned to their brigade MG company and then put in to the MGC when it was formed. Craig Craig.. OMG do you know were 5th Div were located in Italy?....also could I contact you direct buddy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 14 June , 2018 Share Posted 14 June , 2018 There's a little bit on the Division here - http://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/mgcompany.php?pid=10615 - but where these units served is outside my area of knowledge so you'd need to find one of the other forum members who's an expert on the 5th Division. You can send me private message if you wish but I would add the caveat as above. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 14 June , 2018 Share Posted 14 June , 2018 Watching this thread with interest and admiration for Craig's detective work. Such a pity that the 15 Brigade MG Company diary for the Italy period has not been digitised. Seems that 9 Scottish Division got mixed up with 9 Battalion MGC but intrigued still though that we started with photo of a man with a Scots bonnet and ended up with a Royal Welsh Fusilier turned MGC. Mikereme - you may not have noticed that Thomas Samuel Williams was originally buried by the Germans and brought in after the war to the British graves area of the cemetery. (CWGC details). The 9 Battalion MGC diary for May 1918 does not record him going missing Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 14 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2018 18 minutes ago, MaxD said: Watching this thread with interest and admiration for Craig's detective work. Such a pity that the 15 Brigade MG Company diary for the Italy period has not been digitised. Seems that 9 Scottish Division got mixed up with 9 Battalion MGC but intrigued still though that we started with photo of a man with a Scots bonnet and ended up with a Royal Welsh Fusilier turned MGC. Mikereme - you may not have noticed that Thomas Samuel Williams was originally buried by the Germans and brought in after the war to the British graves area of the cemetery. (CWGC details). The 9 Battalion MGC diary for May 1918 does not record him going missing Max Hi Max, This has been a great thread...I have just returned from a Family Pilgrimage from Ypres 26 May 2018 (100th anniversary) ..I knew he was RWF (being from Wrexham myself)...and he died of his wounds from ICRC (MISSING LISTS) he was reported missing 25/05/18....9th Bn MGC A Coy....this was my conclusion that he was wounded and captured in the area of Piccadilly Farm/Darmstrasse Line St Eloi (Ypres), when the Germans Launched their Offensive in the Ypres Salient. He was supporting the 5th Bn Cameron Highlanders..attached pics..the family at the welsh memorial..from all round the world incl Australia & Isle of Man...Service of Remembrance CWGC (Kortrijk) -and my mother laying a wreath at the area known as Piccadilly farm with the owner who kindly allowed us into his home....I knew that Kortrijk was in German hands during the the time Great uncle was captured and Died of Wounds...we will remember them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 14 June , 2018 Share Posted 14 June , 2018 Super pictures. Since found his POW record. It didn't make any sense comparing where the cemetery is located with the area 9 Bn MGC were operating in in May 1918, the two locations are 45 miles apart so the obvious scenario is that he was captured and was en route to a POW camp when he died of his wounds in a German field hospital (the record has no location). The record is a centrally produced list of deaths produced in July 1918 notated "no further details". Maybe you have this? Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 14 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2018 5 minutes ago, MaxD said: Super pictures. Since found his POW record. It didn't make any sense comparing where the cemetery is located with the area 9 Bn MGC were operating in in May 1918, the two locations are 45 miles apart so the obvious scenario is that he was captured and was en route to a POW camp when he died of his wounds in a German field hospital (the record has no location). The record is a centrally produced list of deaths produced in July 1918 notated "no further details". Maybe you have this? Max Cheers Max, I think I have everything with his death but would like to see what you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 14 June , 2018 Share Posted 14 June , 2018 Link to his card https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4213341/3/2/ Enter the PA number in the box and it brings up the (not very helpful) listing. It is one of many, most arranged by POW camp but, as said, this is a central list without any more detail than is there, in his case Feldlazarett - field hospital. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 14 June , 2018 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2018 Hi Max...Yes we given this by someone on the Forum also I was given a another PA no PA 37850 and he is fourth from bottom and managed to translate that the cause of death was "Gun Shot Wound To The Lung"...I released this info to the family during the pilgrimage..very moving Thank you so much for your help... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now