Minesweeper, Duchess of Montrose

[larneman]

I have gathered that the minesweeper, Duchess of Montrose, struck a mine off the coast of Belgium sometime in April 1917.

It seems that FULTON, William James :- Engineer, Royal Naval Reserve, aged 40 years was killed then.

I can find no record of him on the CWGC.

Any information or corrections would be welcome.

Liam

[Malcolm]

Duchess of Montrose, paddle minesweeper of 322 tons, launched 1902, Admiralty No 585, requisitioned 15th May 1915, mined off Dunkirk 18th March 1917.

I can find nothing on CWGC either. Also see;

http://www.memorials.inportsmouth.co.uk/sh..._losses_ww1.htm

Aye

Malcolm

[larneman]

Thanks Malcom,

I could only find a referance to a HMS. Montrose sunk near Dunkirk on 18th March 1917 but nothing to link the two.

Liam

[Malcolm]

PS Duchess of Montrose (1902)Built in 1902 by John Brown, successors to Thomson at Clydebank

Engines: 4cyl. two crank Triple expansion diagonal, 16.75, 16.75, 35.5 and 53 in x 54 in

Dimensions : 210 ft x 25.1 ft

321 Gross Registered tonnes

Initially on the Ayr station offering cruised on the lower Firth of Clyde

Later spent most of her time upstream on general railway connections

Requisitioned as a troopship and later a minesweeper as HMS Montrose

Mined and sunk near Gravelines off the French coast on March 18th 1917

If you have the cash -

774 Large scale model of the paddle steamer 'Duchess of Montrose',

96in (245cm) long

Note: John Brown of Glasgow built the original passenger-carrying vessel in 1902. The ‘Duchess’ was stationed at Ayr for excursions

but was later operated by the ‘Caledonian Steam Packet Co’ until

the outbreak of war in1914. She was used as a minesweeper and

was lost after hitting a mine of Gravelines (Belgian Coast)

on 18th March 1917.

Provenance: This model was on display in the National

Museum in West Sussex till it closed 3yrs ago.

It was listed (pictured) in Miller's in 1999/2000

£900-1200.

Some of the crew can be found on SNWM at

http://www.snwm.org/website/main.html

just enter the date 18/03/1917 on the search page.

Fulton is not listed on the Plymouth Memorial on CWGC with other crewmen of the Montrose.

Aye

Malcolm

[kin47]

Hello

Here is the list for DUCHESS OF MONTROSE

BROWN WILLIAM J. 2nd ENGINEER, Mercantile Marine Reserve (none listed) DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

FAIR WILLIAM ENGINEER, Mercantile Marine Reserve (none listed) DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

GIBBON THOMAS E. TRIMMER, RNR S T 323 DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

HOUSTON ROBERT STEWARD, Mercantile Marine Reserve (none listed) DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

LESMOND GERALD L. TY/S/LT, RNVR DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

MACDONALD NORMAN DECK HAND, RNR S D 1031 DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

MACELWEE ARCHIBALD TY/ENGINEER S/LT, RNR DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

MCLENNAN DONALD J. DECK HAND, RNR S D 4527 DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

MCPHERSON ALEXANDER ASST STEWARD, Mercantile Marine Reserve (none listed) DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

PANTHER CYRIL H. O/TELEGRAPHIST, RNVR LONDON Z 3836 DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

TUFFIN ALFRED R. P.O. (Pensioner) (LBOATMAN, CG) 150803 (Po) DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

WARDEN CHRISTOPHER DECK HAND, RNR S D 1638 DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

Fulton does not appear as either a name or an alias in my data base0.

don

[Guest Pete Wood]

Fulton was possibly born in Cumberland - FreeBmd and census seem to confirm this.

What I find strange is that none of the Mercantile Marines appear on the CWGC register, nor are they on the GRO Deaths at Sea register, nor the GRO deaths register.

This sounds as though there was a massive administration error, by the Mercantile Marine Office. I don't think their deaths were registered - and it appears that they should be commemorated by the CWGC.

[Terry Denham]

The MMR casualties in the above list are on the CWGC database. Eg

Name: BROWN, WILLIAM JAMES

Initials: W J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Second Engineer

Regiment: Mercantile Marine Reserve

Unit Text: H.M.P.M.S. "Duchess of Montrose."

Age: 36

Date of Death: 18/03/1917

Additional information: Husband of Georgina Gillan Brown, of 72, Montague St., Rothesay, Bute.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: 25.

Cemetery: PLYMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL

The MMR is classified as a 'Naval' unit rather than a 'Merchant Navy' unit by CWGC

[Guest Pete Wood]

The MMR is classified as a 'Naval' unit rather than a 'Merchant Navy' unit by CWGC

Thanks. This classification fooled me.

[larneman]

Fulton does not appear as either a name or an alias in my data base0.

Thank you, Don, for all the additional information.

Fulton was possibly born in Cumberland - FreeBmd and census seem to confirm this.

Thank you, Pete.

The FULTON, William James I was looking for, was connected with Portstewart, Co. L'Derry. So its highly possible a different one. As I am a little stuck with my War Memorial research I have started to research all the seamen from Whitehead to Coleraine that served and died in WW1.

again thanks, to Malcolm and Terry as well ,

Liam

[Ned]

The MMR casualties in the above list are on the CWGC database. Eg

Name: BROWN, WILLIAM JAMES

Initials: W J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Second Engineer

Regiment: Mercantile Marine Reserve

Unit Text: H.M.P.M.S. "Duchess of Montrose."

Age: 36

Date of Death: 18/03/1917

Additional information: Husband of Georgina Gillan Brown, of 72, Montague St., Rothesay, Bute.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: 25.

Cemetery: PLYMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL

The MMR is classified as a 'Naval' unit rather than a 'Merchant Navy' unit by CWGC

William James Brown was my Great Grandfather , my father wasn't told much about him and finding this thread and following the various links led to the discovery that his name is listed on the Plymouth Naval Memorial , a memorial I often passed during my time in the Navy without the slightest inclination that his name might be on it .

Can anyone suggest any other sources of information that might provide details about William or The Dutchess Of Montrose , I know the wrecks location but I'd like to know more about what actually happened , were there any survivors ? I guess there are no known graves !

this site has already been a great help , thankyou .

[PBI]

I note that D.MacLennan,does have a Grave,but is Buried back in His Native Scotland,I thought this was little odd as i always believed that the CWWGC operated a strict no repatriation policy,has anyone any ideas as to why this Sailors Body was actually sent Home for Burial ??????

[Ned]

I note that D.MacLennan,does have a Grave

How did you discover that D.MacLennan was buried PBI ?

I've tried the various links provided on this thread without finding any reference to a grave for Donald

[Michael Lowrey]

The Duchess of Montross sank on a minelaid by the German submarine UB 12. And before anyone asks, German UC submarines were the minelayers (along with U 71 to U 80 and U 117 to U 126) and UB boats were small(er) torpedo attack boats. However, UB 12 was modified to carry 8 mines in December 1916 and January 1917.

Best wishes,

Michael

[PBI]

How did you discover that D.MacLennan was buried PBI ?

I've tried the various links provided on this thread without finding any reference to a grave for Donald

I was scrolling through a book called Not Forgotten,and ther is a lot of stuff about our Man in there,but i am still puzzled as to why his Body was returned to Scotland for Burial.He is Also on the CWWGC database

[historydavid]

PBI,

I would imagine that his body was retrieved from the sea by a British ship, which was heading back home.

I believe that the bodies of service men, who died here or were brought here, were returned to their next of kin if they wished it.

Best wishes

David

[PBI]

Thanks for that,i found it a bit odd that was all,i suppose he was not the only man returned in this fashion.

[Guest billb]

Thank you, Don, for all the additional information.

Thank you, Pete.

The FULTON, William James I was looking for, was connected with Portstewart, Co. L'Derry. So its highly possible a different one. As I am a little stuck with my War Memorial research I have started to research all the seamen from Whitehead to Coleraine that served and died in WW1.

again thanks, to Malcolm and Terry as well ,

Liam

William James Brown was my grand father. Although he lived on The Isle of Bute my father told me that he was originally from Port Stewart N.I.

[Guest billb]

William James Brown was my Great Grandfather , my father wasn't told much about him and finding this thread and following the various links led to the discovery that his name is listed on the Plymouth Naval Memorial , a memorial I often passed during my time in the Navy without the slightest inclination that his name might be on it .

Can anyone suggest any other sources of information that might provide details about William or The Dutchess Of Montrose , I know the wrecks location but I'd like to know more about what actually happened , were there any survivors ? I guess there are no known graves !

this site has already been a great help , thankyou .

William James Brown was my Grandfather. I understand that he was born in Port Stewart Northern Ireland. I will try to e mail photo soon.

[spithead]

Photo and details here of DUCHESS OF MONTROSE

http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/viewship.asp?id=2199

Regards

John

[Ned]

I had planned to return to this thread in order to post my findings on the Duchess Of Montrose but at the last minute I discovered something that has me slightly puzzled - The Thirteenth Man !

'kin47' kindly supplied the first casualty list I saw for the ship - it lists the 12 men documented to have been lost on the Duchess - it's a list I've since seen replicated by a few sources:

Here is the list for DUCHESS OF MONTROSE

BROWN WILLIAM J. 2nd ENGINEER, Mercantile Marine Reserve (none listed) DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

FAIR WILLIAM ENGINEER, Mercantile Marine Reserve (none listed) DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

GIBBON THOMAS E. TRIMMER, RNR S T 323 DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

HOUSTON ROBERT STEWARD, Mercantile Marine Reserve (none listed) DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

LESMOND GERALD L. TY/S/LT, RNVR DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

MACDONALD NORMAN DECK HAND, RNR S D 1031 DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

MACELWEE ARCHIBALD TY/ENGINEER S/LT, RNR DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

MCLENNAN DONALD J. DECK HAND, RNR S D 4527 DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

MCPHERSON ALEXANDER ASST STEWARD, Mercantile Marine Reserve (none listed) DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

PANTHER CYRIL H. O/TELEGRAPHIST, RNVR LONDON Z 3836 DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

TUFFIN ALFRED R. P.O. (Pensioner) (LBOATMAN, CG) 150803 (Po) DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17 SHIP LOSS

WARDEN CHRISTOPHER DECK HAND, RNR S D 1638 DUCHESS OF MONTROSE 18/03/17

Just when I was ready to close the book on my research I discovered William Ernest Sparkes - he's listed as a "Duchess Of Montrose" 'casualty' yet he died 4 months after the loss : CWGC Link

I had assumed this was due to injury suffered at the time but according to "The War Graves Photographic Project" his grave is marked "Died of heart disease 8th July 1917" WGPP Link

Did his 'heart disease' have to come about as a result of the sinking for him to have the DoM listed as his Unit?

If he contracted heart disease and left the ship prior to the sinking would he still have had his last unit listed upon his death even though the ship had been lost?

Any feedback greatly appreciatted.

[historydavid]

Ned, the Admiralty casualty list for the DUCHESS of MONTROSE does not include Sparkes.

However, as he obviously died some time after the sinking I believe that this indicates he had been discharged from the service due to ill health. The WGPP mention of heart disease would appear to confirm poor health, and this type of illness would preclude him from work on a ship. The disease may have resulted from the sinking, ie heart attack, but it is just as likely to have occurred prior to it.

Records showing a man still attached to a ship after discharge because of health are quite common.

Best wishes

David

[SiegeGunner]

An interesting thread, resurfacing after a couple of years. So is Fulton a potential case of non-commemoration? And was Lavender, who doesn't appear to have visited the forum since October 2006, mistaken in claiming the William James Brown lost on the Duchess of Montrose as his grandfather?

[Ned]

An interesting thread, resurfacing after a couple of years. So is Fulton a potential case of non-commemoration? And was Lavender, who doesn't appear to have visited the forum since October 2006, mistaken in claiming the William James Brown lost on the Duchess of Montrose as his grandfather?

Lavender is a cousin of my Fathers.

He, like myself, found this thread when we began looking into the history of the ship.

[Ned]

Ned, the Admiralty casualty list for the DUCHESS of MONTROSE does not include Sparkes.

However, as he obviously died some time after the sinking I believe that this indicates he had been discharged from the service due to ill health. The WGPP mention of heart disease would appear to confirm poor health, and this type of illness would preclude him from work on a ship. The disease may have resulted from the sinking, ie heart attack, but it is just as likely to have occurred prior to it.

Records showing a man still attached to a ship after discharge because of health are quite common.

Best wishes

David

Thanks David,

One of the things I was going to do to 'document' what I've discovered about the ship was to add a page to Wikipedia about it - I was just confirming the casualties when I found Sparkes .

[SiegeGunner]

Admiral Bacon (Dover Patrol) records that 12 men were lost in the sinking of Duchess of Montrose and other sources confirm that figure and furnish 12 names that do not include Fulton. Is Liam sure that his Fulton actually served aboard DoM? Perhaps Ned's research has turned up a complete crew list?

Interesting, too, that Ned and Lavender are related, one generation apart. I suppose that with the ever-growing interest in family history it's actually more surprising the forum doesn't see more instances of several descendants researching the same ancestor.