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Fattyowls

Photos of Gallipoli today - the ridge above Gully Ravine and Clapham Junction

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Fattyowls
Posted (edited)

With the support of Everton FC I'm putting together a booklet with details of all of the former players who were killed in both world wars. I'm intending to use pictures rather than lots of text, and am trying to find a photo of the individual, the name on a headstone or memorial and the place where they fell as far as possible. I have most of what I need for the lads who were killed in France and Belgium, but the first two to fall did so at Gallipoli, which I've not visited.

 

Fred Collinson of the 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers died on 15th May following an attack on the ridge between the sea and Gully Ravine on the 7th, thanks to Mark Hone I have an eyewitness account from 'Defeat at Gallipoli', by Steel and Hart, and a photo of Fred. Thomas Norse was killed nine days later on the 24th, at Clapham Junction. I have no photo of Tom but both of their names from the Helles Memorial courtesy of Phil Wood. Does anyone have photographs of the ridge above Gully Ravine and of the Clapham Junction area, and would allow me to use them in the booklet?

 

Pete.

 

P.S. If anyone knows a source for contemporary photos of Blackburn men which might include Norse I would be equally grateful, and if there are any contemporary photos of the ridge or Clapman Junction that anyone is aware of I would also be very interested.

Edited by Fattyowls
Talking rubbish

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temptage

I know it took me a long time but i looked through all the local newspapers from the war years for photos submitted for printing by families. I found 3500 photos (including my own Grandfather) in there.

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Fattyowls
23 minutes ago, temptage said:

I know it took me a long time but i looked through all the local newspapers from the war years for photos submitted for printing by families. I found 3500 photos (including my own Grandfather) in there.

 

That's what I was thinking; I don't know Blackburn and it's libraries at all but maybe someone on here does and wouldn't mind giving me some top tips.

 

Pete.

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michaeldr
12 hours ago, Fattyowls said:

Fred Collinson of the 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers was killed on the ridge between the sea and Gully Ravine on the 15th May, thanks to Mark Hone I have an eyewitness account from 'Hell's Foundations', and a photo of Fred.

 

Pete,

 

Can you please re-check the details here

Per Westlake, on the 15th May 1915 the 1/5th Lancs Fusiliers were at "reserve positions - Krithia Nullah (11th)" not Gully Spur

I've also looked at pages 90/1 of Hell's Foundations, but cannot see 'an eye witness account' for Collinson

 

regards

Michael

 

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b3rn

Pete, there’s a Collinson named by George Horridge, quoted in Hart and Steel’s Defeat at Gallipoli.

 

Is that the eyewitness account?

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Fattyowls
1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

 

Pete,

 

Can you please re-check the details here

Per Westlake, on the 15th May 1915 the 1/5th Lancs Fusiliers were at "reserve positions - Krithia Nullah (11th)" not Gully Spur

I've also looked at pages 90/1 of Hell's Foundations, but cannot see 'an eye witness account' for Collinson

 

regards

Michael

 

 

Michael

 

I'm so glad you are on the ball. I've just checked back in my notes and the source of the eyewitness account and I'm talking rubbish. The account, written by 2nd Lt. George Horridge is on pages 158-159 in Steele and Hart's 'Defeat at Gallipoli'. I'm sure Mark told me this but since then I've convinced myself that because we are talking about the Lancashire Fusiliers it must have been from the Moorhouse book. The action described took place on the morning of the 7th May, as he and Fred Collinson were advancing from the support trenches to the front line along the scrubby ridge top. Horridge made it to the front line but Fred was shot in the stomach or chest within 10 yards of comparative safety. The last line is "we got him in, but he died later". The CWGC record his death as the 15th May, so they may have been able to evacuate him, but given the likely severity of the wound and the difficulty of the position I wonder if he died in the front line. I suspect we will never know.

 

I will amend the original post accordingly.

 

Pete.

 

P.S. I've just seen that B3m has also spotted the source. I'm not sure I could have got it more wrong if I'd tried.

 

 

 

 

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Fattyowls
4 minutes ago, b3rn said:

Pete, there’s a Collinson named by George Horridge, quoted in Hart and Steel’s Defeat at Gallipoli.

 

Is that the eyewitness account?

 

Good spot mate, honestly I shouldn't be on the electrical interweb without the supervision of a grown-up. Fortunately when I wrote about Collinson I got the facts correct so that is something.

 

Pete.

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michaeldr

The 1/5th Lancs F attack on the 7th May was on Gurkha Bluff [from Westlake again]

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b3rn

Pete, check The Gallipolian, 1985 number 48. 

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michaeldr
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, b3rn said:

Pete, check The Gallipolian, 1985 number 48. 

 

Have I read that correctly Bern?

 

Same story told by a  different author?

"...and found I was accompanied by Collinson, an old soldier of my own platoon. I couldn't see anybody else. We stayed there for a breather and then I told Collinson we should have to go on. The front trench was about another 120 yards ahead. I got up and ran for my life. Bullets seemed to be whizzing past me everywhere and it seemed impossible not to be hit. I think I jumped the last 10 yards into the trench and fell on my face with my rifle muzzle buried in the soil of the parapet. I had run faster than Collinson and I looked back at him. About 10 yards from the trench he was hit in the region of the solar plexus. He got into the trench but was badly wounded. I regret to say that he died later."

 

What do you make of that?

Edited by michaeldr

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b3rn

Michael, there’s a correction in the following journal. Same author! I should have mentioned that.

 

Pete, The Gallipolian will give you more of Horridge’s account if that’s of interest.

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Fattyowls

Hi Bern, that's an excellent find; it's a much more vivid description by George Horridge. Steele and Hart have a longer quote but it ends at the same slightly ambiguous point. What happened depends on what Horridge means by 'later'. Given the dangers of getting to the front line trench I assume that even if a stretcher were available it would be a nightmare trying to get him back in darkness through the scrub that Horridge describes. As Gurkha bluff was still in Turkish hands at this point trying to get him down the cliff and out along the beach would be even worse. But if they registered his death as the 15th then maybe they did get him back. He was certainly an old soldier, born in 1873 and with service in South Africa where he may have been at Spion Kop.

 

So from all of this I need a photo looking at the ridge to the SW of Gurkha Bluff; I searched on the electrical interweb and found one looking down at Fusiliers Bluff but it was quite small and too far to the right for where Collinson was hit. I thought about using the famous War Illustrated photo of Gurkha Bluff from the beach after its capture, but this really doesn't give a sense of where Fred was.

 

Thanks to all for the advice and assistance so far.

 

Pete.

 

 

 

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michaeldr
Posted (edited)

Bern - Thanks for the clarification

 

Pete - Try to contact our fellow member Krithia (Steve Chambers) who is not only an avid collector of photographs, but he also wrote the book on Gully Ravine. It's just possible that he may be able to help you

 

regards

Michael

Edited by michaeldr

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familyhistoryman
On 10/06/2018 at 20:46, Fattyowls said:

With the support of Everton FC I'm putting together a booklet with details of all of the former players who were killed in both world wars. I'm intending to use pictures rather than lots of text, and am trying to find a photo of the individual, the name on a headstone or memorial and the place where they fell as far as possible. I have most of what I need for the lads who were killed in France and Belgium, but the first two to fall did so at Gallipoli, which I've not visited.

 

Fred Collinson of the 1/5th Lancashire Fusiliers died on 15th May following an attack on the ridge between the sea and Gully Ravine on the 7th, thanks to Mark Hone I have an eyewitness account from 'Defeat at Gallipoli', by Steel and Hart, and a photo of Fred. Thomas Norse was killed nine days later on the 24th, at Clapham Junction. I have no photo of Tom but both of their names from the Helles Memorial courtesy of Phil Wood. Does anyone have photographs of the ridge above Gully Ravine and of the Clapham Junction area, and would allow me to use them in the booklet?

 

Pete.

 

P.S. If anyone knows a source for contemporary photos of Blackburn men which might include Norse I would be equally grateful, and if there are any contemporary photos of the ridge or Clapman Junction that anyone is aware of I would also be very interested.

Pete

If you know the names of any of the Blackburn men then you could check for them on www.cottontown.org 

Tony

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Fattyowls
5 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Bern - Thanks for the clarification

 

Pete - Try to contact our fellow member Krithia (Steve Chambers) who is not only an avid collector of photographs, but he also wrote the book on Gully Ravine. It's just possible that he may be able to help you

 

regards

Michael

 

Thanks Michael, I'll contact Steve as you suggest. This thread is exceeding my wildest expectations already.

 

Pete.

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Fattyowls
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, familyhistoryman said:

Pete

If you know the names of any of the Blackburn men then you could check for them on www.cottontown.org 

Tony

 

Thanks Tony, there is no substitute for local knowledge. I checked out the site and guess what I found - http://www.cottontown.org/Wars/Roll of Honour/World War 1/PublishingImages/Forms/DispForm.aspx?ID=1397

 

This has just blown me away; I've been working on Thomas Norse on and off for nearly four years and finally to see his face makes such a difference. I'll email the library to see if I can help them with any of the information that I have. I have to say a big thank you yet again to helpjpl for all her researches on Norse (and lots of others) on my behalf.

 

Pete.

Edited by Fattyowls

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familyhistoryman
46 minutes ago, Fattyowls said:

 

Thanks Tony, there is no substitute for local knowledge. I checked out the site and guess what I found - http://www.cottontown.org/Wars/Roll of Honour/World War 1/PublishingImages/Forms/DispForm.aspx?ID=1397

 

This has just blown me away; I've been working on Thomas Norse on and off for nearly four years and finally to see his face makes such a difference. I'll email the library to see if I can help them with any of the information that I have. I have to say a big thank you yet again to helpjpl for all her researches on Norse (and lots of others) on my behalf.

 

Pete.

Pete

Glad to be of help. The Library will be able to provide you with a copy of the obituary from the local newspaper

regards

Tony

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familyhistoryman
2 hours ago, familyhistoryman said:

Pete

Glad to be of help. The Library will be able to provide you with a copy of the obituary from the local newspaper

regards

Tony

Hi, If your Thomas Norse played football for Blackburn, then mention it in the email as there is a group of researcher in Blackburn Library, most days, especially Tuesdays, that are researching the football team. your email will be picked by Mary Painter, commnuity Librarian

Tony

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Fattyowls

Tony, I'll do just that. I'm not aware that Norse played at a senior level other than the two trial games he had at Everton. He must have been reasonably promising as they actually gave him a short term contract, but he didn't impress. I think I worked out that the trial came not long after the death of one of his children which I would think would be significant. Thanks to Helpjpl I have a selection of match reports of him playing for Accrington Villa, although Everton signed him from Blackburn St Philip. I'm not aware of any of my other players turning out for Blackburn but I'll certainly double check to see if I can help the group at the library. There's still plenty for me to find out about Tom, particularly where he was when the 1911 census was taken.

 

Pete.

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Fattyowls

Just to say that thanks to Tony and the top tip about cottontown.org, I now have a newspaper picture of Thomas Norse from Mary Painter, which contains some biographical information that I didn't have, and is verified as a likeness by his brother in law. I'm really grateful to Mary, who even apologised for taking a few days to respond. Given that I've been looking for nearly four years, and knowing how busy librarians are these days it was no problem at all. Result as they say in football circles.

 

Pete.

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familyhistoryman

Pete

Glad to learn that www.cottontown.org proved to turned up trumps

Tony

 

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