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laughton

CSM Royal Marine Light Infantry, Serre Road No. 2 - Reginald Clarence Rogers

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laughton

There is an UNKNOWN CSM of the RMLI listed in the new batch of files uncovered for the Serre Road No. 2 Cemetery.

 

Problem is that for that location 57d.Q.29.b.6.9, which would the Battle of Ancre around 13 November 1916, there are no CSM's missing from the RMLI. I check all of October and November, but as the LLT suggests, the date of 13 November 1916 is the most likely candidate.

 

Perhaps it is one of the Serjeant's who had battlefield promotion? I presume that would show in his file?

 

BRANDON GEORGE 13-11-16 Serjeant (RMR/B987). 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/8401'
BURCH CHARLES DRAYSON 13-11-16 Serjeant 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/13982'
EMERY CHARLES ROBERT 13-11-16 Serjeant 190th Bde. Machine Gun Coy. R.N. Div. 'PO/14230'
PORTER FREDERICK 13-11-16 Serjeant 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/9189'
TURNER HENRY 13-11-16 Serjeant 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div.

'PLY/8437'

 

doc2618609.JPG

Edited by laughton
added Roger's name to topic title

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michaeldr
1 hour ago, laughton said:

Problem is that for that location 57d.Q.29.b.6.9, which would the Battle of Ancre around 13 November 1916, there are no CSM's missing from the RMLI. I check all of October and November, but as the LLT suggests, the date of 13 October 1916 is the most likely candidate.

 

I agree that the October 1916 action is the most likely, however the 63rd (RN) Division were back in the same general area in early 1917; see Blumberg's Britain's Sea Soldiers p.322>

 

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laughton

Thanks! Will check.

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laughton

Turns out there were five (5) CSM killed in France, only one of which has a known burial location:

 

surname forename death Royal Marine Light Infantry # cemetery or memorial
BOYD THOMAS 25-08-18 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/12524' VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL
CAMPBELL JOHN 26-04-17 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/10131' ARRAS MEMORIAL
EASTWOOD HENRY HAMILTON 04-02-17 190th Bde. Machine Gun Coy. R.N. Div. 'CH/10417' ANCRE BRITISH CEMETERY, BEAUMONT-HAMEL 8.D.32
MILNE, M M RICHARD 28-04-17 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/10828' ARRAS MEMORIAL
ROGERS, M M REGINALD CLARENCE 26-03-18 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/15594' ARRAS MEMORIAL

 

There were NO CASES where the CSM was listed on a SPECIAL MEMORIAL, so we are clear on that issue.

 

The remains were recovered at 57d.Q.29.b.6.9, which places them about 500 yards south of Hamel and about 1,500 yards west of central Thiepval.

  • Boyd 25-08-1918: On the western edge of Loupart Wood (57c.G.34) on the 24th, where they attacked enemy positions on the morning of the 25th (war diary page 149 of 178). This places them to the southwest of Grevillers, about 4,000 yards west of Bapaume. He is out of the area where the remains were found.

     
  • Rogers 26-03-1918: In Martinpuich on the 25th and fighting rearguard action to Thiepval, where they remained the night of 25th and 26th. Ordered to withdraw across the River Ancre to Hamel on the 26th, where they took up a defensive position (war diary page 115 of 178). He most certainly was in the right location.

     
  • Campbell 26-04-1917: North of Gavrelle (51b.B.30.b / 51b.C.25.a) on the 24th where there was heavy artillery and air action on the 25th and 26th (war diary page 132 of 333). Three (3) other ranks reported killed. This puts him out of the area, as he was lost south of Oppy to the northeast of Arras.

     
  • Milne 28-04-1917: Same as Campbell above, lost in an attack northeast of Gavrelle. Heavy casualties were reported.

 

The war diary information leaves little doubt that the remains are those of Company Serjeant Major Reginald Clarence Rogers. The war diary reports that they were relieved on the 26th and proceeded to the billets in Martinsart (57d.W.3), to the southwest of where the remains were found. One (1) man is listed by the CWGC as missing and on the Arras Memorial for the 25th (Private Beard). It is likely then that the other twenty two (22) men listed on the Arras Memorial were not killed on the 27th but on the 26th. That eliminates any chance of identifying the other two unknowns with Rogers on the same COG-BR page.

 

r5955t7e9j9waxl6g.jpg

Edited by laughton
added Special Memorial check 27/10/2018

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michaeldr
1 hour ago, laughton said:

Rogers 26-03-1918: In Martinpuich on the 25th and fighting rearguard action to Thiepval, where they remained the night of 25th and 26th. Ordered to withdraw across the River Ancre to Hamel on the 26th, where they took up a defensive position (war diary page 115 of 178). He most certainly was in the right location.

 

Good work Richard

Blumberg (p.344) notes that "Shortly after the withdrawal from Thiepval Ridge to behind the Arras-Albert Railway the Germans who throughout followed closely, attacked the 1/RMLI and succeeded in gaining a footing in the position. A successful counter-attack .... drove the Germans out and re-established the line." 

That counter attack must have been very difficult; two officers gained the MC (one posthumously)

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laughton

There is another RMLI in Plot 4 Row J Grave 16 from 57d.Q.12.c.7.3 so he would be of the same date. The Headstone Schedule says only "A Royal Marine of the Great War" (HD-SCHD 2743537).Initially I thought all of these RMLI stones could be updated to show that their date of death was March 1918, but I suspect that the CWGC would say that the close proximity of the RMLI in November 1916 negates that idea. Both the 1st and 2nd Bns RMLI were near Station Road, not more that 2,000 yards north of the area where the remains were recovered (on the southern edge of Beaumont-Hamel) 57d.Q.11-12. That is the sector immediately north of Q17 on the map depicted above. The intersection of Station Road, Station Trench and Station Alley occurs at 57d.Q.12.c.15.35, where the RMLI were in November 1916, is only 2,200 yards north of where the remains were recovered.

 

71ea7390c34yclq6g.jpg

Edited by laughton
fixed link

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laughton

In the process of sorting cases to see which ones are best to move to the next stage. Part of the process now is to always check the CWGC requirement that the candidate was not one that had the unit as the "Secondary Regiment". They kindly added that to the system when you download a search.

 

In this case we have six (6) candidates in France, of which three (3) have NKG (No Known Grave): CWGC LINK

 

None of the candidates held the rank of Company Serjeant Major. Serjeant Bennell #3/10251 was with the 2nd Suffolks but formerly RMLI. There is no mention of this on his MRIC, nor any reference to any rank other than Serjeant.

 

We are good to go! He is on the list for the "To be submitted" as a report to the CWGC.

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Becstar

👍🏻 Fantastic Richard. 

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laughton

More that 14 months after initiation, this one is next on the list to go to the reporting stage. That does not mean it is FINAL as a number of the cases have been terminated when the intricate fine details are researched in the final stages.

 

Now to collect the other documents for the report: (thanks to Arthur Winstone 25th AIF for the links to the documents)

 

Graves Registration

doc2616446.JPG

HEADSTONE SCHEDULE

doc2743537.JPG

 

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laughton

I only just noticed what the code means in the front of their service numbers:

 

CH - Chatham Battalion - found that with Private Langlois

 

Confirmed from the listings on the LLT.

 

PLY - Plymoouth

PO - Portsmouth

 

I had always assumed the others such as Hood, Nelson and Hawke were named after their original ships.

 

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horatio2

Not quite. The CH/PLY/PO prefix to an RMLI register number does not tell you which battalion of the RND a man served in. It tells you which Division of the RMLI he was serving in. Often this matches the name of his battalion (until August 1915 when RMLI battalions were numbered, not named) but there are many dozens of men who served in a battalion which is not named for their Division (e.g. Portsmouth Division RMLI men serving in Plymouth Battalion). Deal Battalion RND was composed entirely of men from the three RMLI Grand Divisions. and none had a 'Deal' prefix.

 

The naval battalions (Hood, Nelson, Hawke, etc) were named after admirals not ships.

Edited by horatio2

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laughton

Thanks for the clarification - I would have to believe someone with the moniker "Horatio"!

 

It was listed as the battalion on the Long, Long Trail and the division is given as the 63rd (Naval) Division.

 

Perhaps then it was the Division he was in BEFORE the 63rd (Naval) Division?

 

And of course the name of an Admiral makes much more sense than the name of a ship! I should known better, as both my parents were navy. Wondered for years why my mother was in a "Stone Frigate". Life is a long and rewarding learning experience if you keep an open mind.

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horatio2
9 minutes ago, laughton said:

Perhaps then it was the Division he was in BEFORE the 63rd (Naval) Division?

Probably, It can be confusing. Basically, a new recruit to the RMLI would be trained at the RMLI Depot, Deal and then, on completion of training, be assigned to one of the three RMLI Grand Divisions (which, in broad terms, you could equate to a naval rating's 'home port'). His register number would have the CH/PO/PLY prefix.

From his Divisional HQ he could then be drafted to sea (ships of the Fleet) or to land-based units such as the RND (from mid-1916 the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division). In the RND he would serve in one of the RMLI battalions. Until August 1915 these were named Plymouth, Chatham, Portsmouth and Deal Battalions, as previously described.

 

A man would serve ashore at his Divisional HQ when not on shore or embarked drafts. To complicate matters, men could be transferred between RMLI  Divisions (sometimes more than once), with a consequent change of register number and divisional prefix.

 

Never straightforward!

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laughton

Checking up on the KNOWN CSM that was killed in the immediate area of where the remains were recovered:

 

As part of the research on the historical documents, the records for the known Company Sergeant Major Henry Eastwood were also checked, as his remains were recovered in close proximity to the unknown candidate at 57d.Q.18.a (COG-BR 1965555). He was killed in action on 4 February 1917, two (2) months prior to the deaths of Campbell and Milne. At the time of his death he was serving with the 190th Machine Gun Company, 63rd (Naval) Division. Details of the action at that time (war diary page 342 of 520), places the company in the trenches at Beaucourt. He was the sole member of the company killed in action that day. For clarification, there are no Company Sergeant Majors that were killed in that action listed on a memorial for the unknown.

 

If the remains of Company Sergeant Major Eastwood had not been recovered and buried in the Ancre British Cemetery, then it would not have been possible to arrive at the conclusion that the remains were those of CSM Rogers. The two sets of remains were only 2,000 yards apart. Eastwood’s remains were recovered by the 148th Labour Company on or before 8 October 1919. The set of “unknown remains” were recovered on or about 12 June 1923.

 

doc1965555.JPG

 

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laughton
On 10/06/2018 at 09:54, michaeldr said:

see Blumberg's Britain's Sea Soldiers p.322>

 

Yahoo! That book is available on-line throught the HathiTrust. You can read it here: (thanks for that link!  @michaeldr )

 

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89100004282&view=1up&seq=396

 

Chapter 26 (starting page 311) deals with the R.M.L.I. Battalions in France. It also deals with Ypres 1917 (page 322).

 

These links take you to the specific page of the text:

 

  • Battle of Ancre (Somme 13-18 November 1916) - no CSM missing
    • the operation is discussed on page 317, which is definately in the sector
    • had there been a missing CSM then we probably could not have identified the remains

 

  • Operations on the Ancre (January-March 1917) - CSM Campbell and Milne lost on 26th and 28th April 1917
    • page 327 reports on the Battle of Arleux on the 28 and 29th April 1917
    • they were to attack the Gavrelle Windmill
    • CSM Rogers was there and "rendered avery good service" but he survived that day
    • CSM Chapman is reported being taken prisoner and died of wounds in Germany (May 1917), the CWGC has him buried in Belgium (CWGC Link). His COG-BR 2366408 tells us that he was buried in a German grave in the Tournai cemetery and moved slightly when the cemetery was restructured after the war.

 

  • Battle of Bapaume (24-25 March 1918) - CSM Rogers 26 March 1918
    • the account of operations for 1918 starts on page 338
    • the rearguard action back to Thiepval is reported on page 344
    • there is a reference to their defensive position, formed in part by the Arras-Albert railway, where the remains were recovered
    • the 1st R.M.L.I. is reported to be 300 yards east of Mesnil (57d.Q.29)

 

  • Battle of Albert (21-23 August 1918) - CSM Boyd 25 August 1918
    • this account of operations starts on page 351, with action on the 25th on page 356
    • the first objective of the 1st R.M.L.I. was the Grevillers Trench between Grevillers and Loupart Wood, with a final objective at Le Barque

 

All in all a fascinating read and a continuing learning experience.

Edited by laughton
correction: Campbell and Milne were 26th and 28th

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horatio2
20 minutes ago, laughton said:

Operations on the Ancre (January-March 1917) - CSM Campbell and Milne lost on 28 April 1917

For clarity, the events you have listed under this heading are not "Operations on the Ancre" but rather the Arras Offensive, 25 miles to the north of the Ancre, including the 2nd Battle of the Scarpe (23-24 April 1917) and the Battle of Arleux (28-29 April 1917).

 

"CSM Rogers was there and "rendered avery good service" but he survived that day"  - Indeed. He won the MM at Gavrelle.

Edited by horatio2

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laughton

True enough, as I had taken that from the Long, Long Trail for the 63rd (Naval) Divison back at the start of this hunt when I was looking for any time they were at or near the River Ancre. I should have listed all of what Chris had said for the start of 1917 before they went to Passchendaele:

 

Quote

The Operations on the Ancre (January-March 1917)

The Second Battle of the Scarpe (23-24 April 1917), a phase of the Arras Offensive, in which the Division captured Gavrelle

The Battle of Arleux (28-29 April 1917), a phase of the Arras Offensive

 

I should have shown it as:

  • Battle of Ancre (Somme 13-18 November 1916) - no CSM missing
    • the operation is discussed on page 317, which is definitely in the sector
    • had there been a missing CSM then we probably could not have identified the remains
  • Operations on the Ancre (January-March 1917) – no CSM missing
    • the operation is discussed starting on page 322
  • The Second Battle of the Scarpe (23-24 April 1917) – no CSM missing
    • details the capture of Gavrelle at this time on page 327
    • east of Bailleul, opposite Oppy
  • The Battle of Arleux (28-29 April 1917) - CSM Campbell and Milne lost on 28 April 1917
    • page 327 reports on the Battle of Arleux on the 28 and 29th April 1917
    • they were to attack the Gavrelle Windmill ....

Thanks for the correction!

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laughton

Given that there are only three (3) other CSM's with no known grave in France, it may be worth looking deeper into their possible burial locations.

 

surname forename death Royal Marine Light Infantry # memorial
BOYD THOMAS 25/08/1918 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/12524' VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL
CAMPBELL JOHN 26/04/1917 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/10131' ARRAS MEMORIAL
MILNE, M M RICHARD 28/04/1917 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/10828' ARRAS MEMORIAL

 

Where are others buried on these dates?

  • 24-26 August 1918 - scattered locations (CWGC Link), all were in the 1st Bn.
    surname initials death rank # cemetery grave
    CATTELL S 25/08/1918 Sergeant 'PLY/13800' A.I.F. BURIAL GROUND, FLERS IX. E. 1.
    TOWNSEND A E 25/08/1918 Private 'PLY/15233' A.I.F. BURIAL GROUND, FLERS XI. E. 10.
    WINTERBOTTOM C 25/08/1918 Private 'CH/2507(S)' A.I.F. BURIAL GROUND, FLERS XI. G. 8.
    BAUNTON F J 26/08/1918 Private 'PLY/1929(S)' ACHIET-LE-GRAND COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION III. C. 18.
    TANNER W A 25/08/1918 Private 'CH/1867(S)' ACHIET-LE-GRAND COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION III. A. 26.
    STOWELL J T 25/08/1918 Private 'CH/19177' ADANAC MILITARY CEMETERY, MIRAUMONT VII. J. 14.
    BRAIN J H 26/08/1918 Private 'H/20644' BAGNEUX BRITISH CEMETERY, GEZAINCOURT V. C. 3.
    MATTHEWS W C B 25/08/1918 Second Lieutenant   BAGNEUX BRITISH CEMETERY, GEZAINCOURT VI. C. 22.
    COX R C 26/08/1918 Lance Corporal 'PO/15008' BUCQUOY COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION B. 3.
    GOOCH P L 25/08/1918 Corporal 'PLY/16852' BUCQUOY COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION B. 10.
    STEPHENS S 25/08/1918 Private 'PLY/1505' BUCQUOY ROAD CEMETERY, FICHEUX VI. M. 26.
    NURDING C 25/08/1918 Private 'PLY/1729(S)' CATERPILLAR VALLEY CEMETERY, LONGUEVAL XXIV. A. 3.
    CRACKNELL C E 25/08/1918 Private 'PLY/18502' GOMMECOURT BRITISH CEMETERY NO.2, HEBUTERNE IV. J. 10.
    CORDUKES G W 24/08/1918 Private 'PLY/1411(S)' ST. HILAIRE CEMETERY EXTENSION, FREVENT M. 23.
    HEAVER C 25/08/1918 Private 'CH/1676(S)' VALENCIENNES (ST. ROCH) COMMUNAL CEMETERY V. E. 27.
    SMITH J 25/08/1918 Corporal 'PLY/12126' WARLENCOURT BRITISH CEMETERY IV. F. 11.
  • 24-30 April 1917 - 331 of the 371 are listed on the Arras Memorial, poor lads (CWGC Link)
    - interesting that Private Smith is buried in Canada serving on the H.M.C.S. RAINBOW
    - how did Private Dickinson end up in the Adanac Military Cemetery (GRRF 2229260) - I have not found him yet?
         - his remains are between two people KIA in the fall of 1916
         - this person agrees (Ancestry Link)
         - UK Royal Marines Register (Ancestry Link) which leads to a record at UKNA here (UKNA Link)
         - the "Dickinson" research topic now continues in a new topic "R.M.L.I. Adanac Military Cemetery", if you want to follow along ....
         - now that new topic is "R.M.L.I. & HAWKE Bn in Adanac Military Cemetery" as we have Lieutenant Wainwright as well
    surname initials death rank unit # cemetery grave
    DICKINSON W J 28/04/1917 Private 2nd CH/1354(S).' ADANAC MILITARY CEMETERY, MIRAUMONT I. B. 35.
    TRINDER T 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'CH/1819(S)' ALBUERA CEMETERY, BAILLEUL-SIRE-BERTHOULT North A. 17.
    YATES H 29/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PO/1074(S)' AUBIGNY COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION II. G. 68.
    COX F W 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'CH/410 (S)' CANADIAN CEMETERY NO.2, NEUVILLE-ST. VAAST 15. B. 14.
    CROWTHER N 28/04/1917 Private 2nd 'CH/1340(S)' CANADIAN CEMETERY NO.2, NEUVILLE-ST. VAAST 4. E. 18.
    HUSSELBEE T 30/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PO/1139(S)' DOUAI COMMUNAL CEMETERY Joint grave. H. 13.
    CARTWRIGHT F J W 30/04/1917 Lieutenant Colonel 1st   DUISANS BRITISH CEMETERY, ETRUN III. H. 53.
    CHAPPELL H 28/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PLY/807(S)' DUISANS BRITISH CEMETERY, ETRUN IV. H. 41.
    LEVER H 30/04/1917 Private 190th MGC 'CH/1370(S)' DUISANS BRITISH CEMETERY, ETRUN III. H. 48.
    LEWIS W C 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'CH/1406(S)' ETAPLES MILITARY CEMETERY XVIII. C. 2A.
    MADDEN T 30/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PO/15323' ETAPLES MILITARY CEMETERY XVIII. E. 4.
    NELSON R 24/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PO/761(S)' ETAPLES MILITARY CEMETERY XIX. G. 1A.
    SAUNDERS J 28/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PLY/332(S)' LIEVIN COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION VI. C. 14.
    SMALLWOOD B 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'PO/1237(S)' LIEVIN COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. A. 13.
    WOOD J 28/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PLY/484(S)' LIEVIN COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION V. C. 17.
    ASLETT G H 28/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PLY/1662(S)' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE IX. D. 25.
    BATTENSBY A B 28/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PO/553(S)' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE VII. H. 13.
    BRADSHAW E 28/04/1917 Lance Corporal 1st 'PLY/16976' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE V. G. 1.
    BRIGGS E E 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'PLY/16972' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE VII. G. 3.
    CHAMBERS W T 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'CH/838' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE V. F. 2.
    CLARK E H 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'PO/17165' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE VII. A. 43.
    DAVIS G W 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'PO/1552(S)' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE VII. H. 6.
    DODSON J 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'CH/18037' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE IV. H. 10.
    FORBER W J 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'PLY/966(S)' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE III. H. 2.
    GANNON G W 28/04/1917 Sergeant 1st 'CH/18137' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE V. E. 1.
    HIRST J 29/04/1917 Private 190th MGC 'PO/1146(S)' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE VII. A. 12.
    HODDER G F J 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'PO/1106(S)' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE III. D. 37.
    HUMPHRIS J 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'CH/1674(S)' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE VII. K. 4.
    HUTTON C A 28/04/1917 Private 2nd 'CH/1898(S)' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE VII. H. 19.
    MAULL L E 25/04/1917 Corporal 2nd 'PO/15942' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE IX. G. 15.
    MORGAN P J 28/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PLY/1643(S)' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE VI. J. 6.
    NAPIER J T 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'PLY/1572(S)' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE VII. H. 3.
    POLLARD A P 28/04/1917 Lance Corporal 2nd 'PO/15953' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE IX. J. 6.
    STEPHENS A E 28/04/1917 Lance Corporal 1st 'PO/17563' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE VII. G. 8.
    THIRLAWAY M I 24/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PO/532(S)' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE V. G. 20.
    WINDERS L A 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'CH/1680(S)' ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE III. J. 9.
    CHAPMAN A E 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'CH/17445' POINT-DU-JOUR MILITARY CEMETERY, ATHIES I. E. 3.
    HILTON G M 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'PO/861(S)' QUEENS CEMETERY, BUCQUOY I. G. 14.
    BATTERBEE R W 26/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PLY/17821' STE. CATHERINE BRITISH CEMETERY B. 2.
    BENNETT M J 26/04/1917 Private 2nd 'PLY/803(S)' STE. CATHERINE BRITISH CEMETERY B. 11.
Edited by laughton
updated to add Wainwright to topic

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laughton

The research on "Dickinson" (in the new topic) also suggests that a logical place to find Company Sergeant Boyd is in the Adanac Military Cemetery. Private Stowell is the only one listed but it is clear that there are a number of other "Navy Boys" buried in that cemetery, many unknown.

 

  • There was no sign of Boyd in the A.I.F. Burial Ground, Flers (ZIP files now made)
  • to be continued!
Edited by laughton
updating as checking cemeteries

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laughton

If any members have the interest and time to review my draft report on CSM Rogeres, you can view it here:

 

https://laughton.ca/reports/Company Serjeant Major Rogers Serre Road Cemetery No. 2 Plot 5 Row E Grave 25.pdf

 

If you participate in the review process and want your name included in the report, just send me the details that go in Attachment #9 of the report.

 

Comments and corrections are not only welcome but appreciated! :poppy:

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horatio2
On 19/08/2019 at 16:29, laughton said:

HILTON G M 28/04/1917 Private 1st 'PO/861(S)' QUEENS CEMETERY, BUCQUOY

Another 'impossible': killed at Gavrelle and supposedly buried on the Somme.  Exhumed from map reference 57d.R.2.c.2.0. to Queens Cemetery in 1919. Almost certainly  mis-identified as George Hilton RMLI and is believed most likely to be that of Bristol Z/4848 AB Holtom RNVR, Howe Battalion KIA 17/2/17 (Thiepval Memorial).

Edited by horatio2

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laughton

Very interesting! It would appear that someone has been looking at both these cases before and has posted notices on the Ancestry databases. I had added to the one about Dickinson to tie it to this topic (now updated to include his ADANAC TOPIC).

 

Is it at all possible that the names are correct and it is the dates of death that are incorrect?

 

Just so I do not lose those links, here they are, with the text that appears to be added by other private researchers: (we don't know who they were)

 

UPDATE September 3, 2019:

These two cases of Dickinson and Hilton continue in two separate topics:

 

Commonwealth War Graves Commission Great Britain, Royal Naval Division Casualties of The Great War, 1914-1924 UK, Royal Navy and Royal Marine War Graves Roll, 1914-1919

DICKINSON, W J
Service Number CH/1354(S).

Died 28/04/1917

2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 
Royal Marine Light Infantry

William John Dickinson

Not listed in "With Full & Grateful Hearts" ; Killed at Arras & buried on the Somme? The grave in Adanac Cemetery is almost certainly not his ; ADM/242/8 = Adanac M.C. Miraumont, Plot 1, Row B, Grave 35 ; A Cook ; b.Enniscorthy, Wexford 22/7/1892 ; Nephew of Mrs. Alice Wragg, of 671 Didsbury Rd., Heaton Mersey, Manchester.

William John Dickinson

Location of Grave:    1. B. 35.
Name and Address of Cemetery:    Adanac Military Cemetery Miraumont Albert, France

HILTON, GEORGE MELLON (or Mellin?)
Service Number PO/861(S)

Died 28/04/1917

Aged 27

1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 
Royal Marine Light Infantry

 

doc2621664.JPG

George Mellon Hilton

CWGC = George Mellon Hilton ; 1st RM Bn. 'B' Company 5th Platoon 28/4/17 ; Exhumed from map reference 57d.R.2.c.2.0. to Queens Cemetery in 1919 ; Killed at Gavrelle, Arras, but buried in a battlefield grave near the Ancre? ; This body was mis-identified as George Hilton RMLI & is believed most likely to be that of Bristol Z/4848 AB Holtom RNVR, Howe Bn. KIA 17/2/17 ; The original cross, as noted by the 117th Labour Company on the burial return in 1919, read only "Pte. Hilton RMLI". On the same page another RNVR man (Mersey Z/40 AB T. Griffiths) was listed as "M.Z.40 Pte. F.W. Griffiths RMLI" & this has been corrected to "M.Z.40 AB T. Griffiths RND Howe." ; A Miner ; b.25/3/1889 ; Son of Thomas Mellon & A.H. Hilton ; Wife, Agnes Young (formerly Hilton), 15 (later 9) King St., Bensham. Gateshead, Durham.

George Mellon Hilton

Location of Grave:    Not recorded

(we can see it is 1.G.14 on CWGC)
Name and Address of Cemetery:    Queens Cemetery, Bucquoy, France

 

 

Edited by laughton
added links to separate topics for Dickinson and Hilton

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horatio2
1 hour ago, laughton said:

Is it at all possible that the names are correct and it is the dates of death that are incorrect?

Not unless both their service records (ADM 159) are totally in error. They both were missing in action at Gavrelle windmill and assumed k.i.a. later in 1917.

 

HILTON enlisted using only one forename, George. CWGC presumably obtained the second forename from family.

 

1 hour ago, laughton said:

It would appear that someone has been looking at both these cases before

Indeed they have. Both inconsistencies were noted some years ago during the compilation of the RND ROH.

Edited by horatio2

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horatio2
On 22/08/2019 at 19:50, laughton said:

If any members have the interest and time to review my draft report on CSM Rogeres

"All ten (10) are listed as “Navy”, despite the RMLI having left the Admiralty on 29 April 1916." This statement is incorrect. Suggest delete as it adds nothing to the submission. The RND (as 63rd (Royal Naval) Division) was transferred to Army operational command and control when joining the BEF in mid-May 1916, having been placed under the Army Act on 16 April 1916. This did not imply that the naval personnel (including RMLI) were no longer under the Admiralty for pay, promotion, drafting and appointing. The Royal Marines (RMLI and RMA) have always been an integral part of the Royal Navy and remained so in this instance.

 

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laughton

Excellent, that is the type detail that I want to make sure is correct! Don't want to annoy a NAVY person during the review process.

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