Trench Map Reference

[Perth Digger]

Could anyone please tell me where the following map reference is situated (at Messines)? I could not find the right map using the Scottish Library's website.

 

Map 28 c.33.c.9.4

 

Thanks

 

Mike

[Howard]

Square C is North of Ypres, Messines is between squares O and U on sheet 28.

 

Happy to supply a map, better if you have a date as well.

 

Howard

[Perth Digger]

Hi Howard

The burial in question relates to Lt J.H.B. Hollings, 21st Lancers attached to 9th Lancers, missing on 31 October 1914. Other evidence suggests that he was killed in the garden of the convent at Messines, where he should have been during the fighting. He was eventually presumed dead in 1917.

 

In 1920 a memorial cross with his name, rank and regiment was found during the clearances at Messines, but with no body. No one knew that such a cross existed. The memorial was subsequently meant to be placed in Messines Ridge British Cemetery, but is not there now. His name is on the Menin Gate.

 

In 1992 a CWGC review of their files determined that the remains on an unknown British officer, buried in La Brique Military Cemetery No.2, were of Hollings. Clothing and buttons were used to make the identification.  This is from an email sent to me by CWGC. I attach the CWGC's Concentration Report as amended, presumably in 1992. You can see the map reference of where the remains were found. 

 

Ah, by blowing up the picture I can see now that it is not C, but O. That makes sense, from what you have said. 

 

I hope this is readable and not breaking copyright.

 

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

 

Thanks

 

Mike

Edited 6 June , 2018 by Perth Digger
Additional information

[Perth Digger]

HI Martin

Yes, thanks.  I noticed it when blowing up the concentration document and amended my reply to Howard. That would explain why I could not find the map on the Scottish site, as there is no C.33.

 

Mike

Edited 6 June , 2018 by Perth Digger

[Howard]

The Burial Return is for La Brique which is North of Ypres, a long way from Messines.

 

The overtype at the top is either an "O" on a "c" or vice-versa but the name fixes it as a "c" I think. It also says St. Jean at the top, that is only a few hundreds yards away from La Brique.

The reference by his name is "O" so if he was found there, here is square 33 O. The refence is near Ch^ile du Voleur.

Howard

Edited 6 June , 2018 by Howard
Typo

[Howard]

The next problem is finding a 1914 map, I do not have anything for Messines nearly that early.

 

Howard

Edited 6 June , 2018 by Howard

[Perth Digger]

So it is a C and not an O, Howard? In which case, how did his body get so far from where he was fighting and where it was seen (probably) on the evening of the 31st? It was also a long way from where his cross was found.

 

I wonder if the CWGC made the wrong decision in 1992?

 

The 21st Lancers never served on the Western Front, but a number of its officers, on leave in England in August 1914, were attached to other cavalry regiments as reinforcements in September and October 1914. There were, I think, three attached to the 9th Lancers. There could have been others. I presume the buttons in particular identified the remains as a 21st Lancer officer. I have no desire to raise the issue of misidentification, so could you please let me know, if you can, where the reference Map 28, O.33.c.9.4 would be? 

 

It would have helped if the Army had been prepared to spend a bit more on typewriter ribbons after the war!

 

Thanks

 

Mike

Our messages crossed, Howard. Sorry. Ignore my request.

 

Mike

 

 

[Perth Digger]

Does a 1:20000 map of Messines for 1914 still exist anywhere?

[Perth Digger]

I've got a bit confused, Howard. In your #6, where is Messines in relation to that map, please?

 

Mike

[Howard]

26 minutes ago, Perth Digger said:

I've got a bit confused, Howard. In your #6, where is Messines in relation to that map, please?

 

Mike

Here is square 33 and the town of Messines. O.33.c.9.4 defines a square 50yards by 50 yards as marked.

 

There are very few maps of the Great War that date from 1914, at that time "everyone" expected a war of movement and the best maps available were the truly ghastly French 1:80,000 series draw in the 1890s. What maps I have from that time are mainly hand-drawn but sadly there are very few of those and many do not have either the old or newer grid. I could not find one that covered Messines.

 

Early in the war the British re-drew some of the French 1:80,000 at a scale of 1:40,000 and 1:20,000 and added a squaring system similar to the one used later on so I checked that, square O in the older squaring system is only numbered 1-25** so O.33.c.9.4 must be part of the later "revised system of squaring", i.e. he was plotted using a newer map. I have a 1:40,000 marked "revised system of squaring" but unhelpfully the date is shown only as 1915. Somewhere in Peter Chasseaud's Artillery's Astrologers are details of when the re-survey took place and where, this may give a better date for when O.33.c.9.4 came to be near Messines; it was not in 1914.

 

The graves registration people were not free of typos, as someone who is very prone to typos myself, I have some sympathy, the detailed task of recording and tracking the dead was huge and errors are sadly inevitable.

 

Howard

 

**In the old squaring, square O covered roughly the towns of Reninghelst, Westoutre and Locre

[Howard]

This is one of the earliest maps I have, dated simply 1915. It has the revised system of squaring drawn at 1:40,000 on top of a French 1:80,000 map so probably pre-dates the emergency re-survey carried out so brilliantly by the Royal Engineers. It has no other military mark-up.

I had hoped for a hand drawn sketch used by Lancers in field reconnaissance, but sadly .....

Howard

[Perth Digger]

That is really good of you, Howard, for taking the time to send me the maps. I'm grateful. The Institution Royale mentioned on the second map was the convent, in the garden of which his body was originally found (or, at least, a body of an officer with 21st Lancer markings, was found). Hollings was attached to 9th Lancers; the 21st Lancers were in India. That looks near enough for my purposes.

 

As for typos, on the concentration sheet the other O reference (below Hollings) is for an 11th Hussar man. They too were at Messines on 31st October, so I doubt if a typo explains anything.

 

You've been very helpful. Thanks.

 

Mike

 

 

 

[JeffMcN]

Howard - fascinated with your first map with its RAP and also dugouts and pillboxes. What date is it and where did you get it?  My colleague and I are still working on our 3-D digital terrain model and map  of Messines, focusing on June 1917 and so keen to get as good a range of raw material as possible.  (And one day it will be revealed...  but good things take time.)  I have the maps from McMaster of the time, as well as photos of maps from Archives New Zealand, but none with these details.

Thanks in advance

Jeff

[Howard]

3 hours ago, JeffMcN said:

Howard - fascinated with your first map with its RAP and also dugouts and pillboxes. What date is it and where did you get it?  My colleague and I are still working on our 3-D digital terrain model and map  of Messines, focusing on June 1917 and so keen to get as good a range of raw material as possible.  (And one day it will be revealed...  but good things take time.)  I have the maps from McMaster of the time, as well as photos of maps from Archives New Zealand, but none with these details.

Thanks in advance

Jeff

Jeff, where did I get it? I spent 4 years scannng the IWM Great War collection landing up with 7000+ maps in 9000+ scans. Some of these are published on the WFA Mapping the Front DVD collection, this map was one of those. As it is already published, here is the full map.

 

I have at least 35 maps that show Messines including barrage maps etc. They should all be on the WFA Ypres DVDs but I am happy to talk further on the subject of maps.

 

Howard

 

 

 

[JeffMcN]

Hello Howard - that sounds rather a lot of work, to say the least!  And I would like to talk to you further regarding maps.

In the meantime - the link you provided is dead (at least for my computer)    [Link not found].  Is it possible to resend a live link?

 

I have had a couple of the different 1917 maps in the NZ Archive scanned - focus on NZ Division, but 'cheated' with others - just taking their photos, which of course raises all sorts of image issues, but mostly serve the purpose needed of them.

 

As an aside, regarding maps - I did think I was on to a winner when by chance my wife mentioned to her old primary-school friend my interest in 1917 Messines, and her husband proffered that his Uncle Bert was killed in the attack - a NZer serving in the 4th Australian - and he had his map case.  Uncle Bert gets a footnote in Bean's  Australian history and his name on the Menin Gate, which doesn't seem too great a trade.  Anyway, I have on loan his map case and maps - just two - SW28 and Hazebrouck.  But no annotations or detailed battlefield map.  Oh well.  No cigar!  Still, a nice connection back.