John Smith RHA Gnr 39257

[MBrockway]

Must admit I am getting accustomed to being called Martin, it happens so regularly here

 

Mark

 

[Kathryn Steeman]

Yes you are right Andy, need to look through RB diaries and then compare notes. will start reading some this weekend. As you say family chatter can some times be totally wrong!

 

Cheers

 

Kathryn in NZ

[Kathryn Steeman]

Sorry Mark, don't know why I put Martin, nothing worse than being called a totally different name!!

 

apologises

Kathryn in NZ

[MBrockway]

41 minutes ago, Kathryn Steeman said:

Sorry Mark, don't know why I put Martin, nothing worse than being called a totally different name!!

 

apologises

Kathryn in NZ

Trust me - there are lots of things worse!    I took no offence.

 

Mark

 

[stiletto_33853]

Kathryn,

 

A few images sent by pm, enjoy the reading.

 

Andy

[Kathryn Steeman]

Thanks Andy marvellous images! Can now see what my Grandfather's uniform properly looks like, brilliant!!

 

Kathryn in NZ

[stiletto_33853]

Map from the newspaper article pages I have sent you

[Kathryn Steeman]

Thanks so much for the newspaper article and this map. It is much better to see things on this map than the one attached to RHA war diary. I was wondering how I go about finding the correct page for the 2nd Bn Rifle Brigade whom were in Calcutta in 1911. I think it was Max that gave me the copy of what someone else posted about Units in India and Burma - 1911 census. I have both Ancestry and FMP but not sure what to enter in what field to narrow down search ?? There is a number 2665 which is suppose to be the "landing page" ie first page in each unit's census roll , but I am struggling to figure out where to put this and what section to look under.Thought this might give some further info to create time line as we know he entered army 1908.

 

Cheers

Kathryn in NZ  

[MaxD]

There appear to be two sets of census returns that include 2RB in 1911.  The National Archives title for RG 14/34988 (the original document reference) simply lists 2 RB among many other army units all included on the same document.  Andy will know better than I but it may be that the battalion was in two locations in Calcutta so that is the reason there are two sets..  I can't find a start page which might have distinguished between the two.

 

First look back at my post #30.  That link to Ancestry is the link to the 2nd RB listings that has the two John Smiths for London and a third from Nailsworth.  You should arrive at image 1954 of 2905 with a little 5 at the top right indicating it is the 5th page for 2 RB.  Use the right and left arrows to go back to image 1946 (little page 1) where it starts and forward to image 1955 where the 2RB list ends.

 

You found the other listing for John Smith on FMP in "Callenta" age "23" which is, as pointed out earlier, Calcutta and aged 20 - your man.  He is also on a (different) page 5 and you can go left and right to the start of that listing and to page 10 which is the end.

 

If you doodle around a bit in the other listings, you will see that each regiment or unit has its own page 1 onwards which are all lumped together in the one census schedule covering lots of units in a number of places.  This schedule is detailed here:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11339198

(The title has Lucknow India, Dilkusha simply because that is the location of the first unit in the list, 2RB in Calcutta is listed halfway down.)

 

I am unsure what you want to do with this info which you already have.  This tells you he was stationed in Calcutta on 2 April 1911.  Where he was in the other years, perhaps Andy can advise.

 

Max

 

 

 

[stiletto_33853]

1907 Chaubattia

1908 Chaubattia

1909 Chaubattia

1910 Calcutta

1911 Calcutta

1912 Rawalpindi

1913 Rawalpindi

 

1914 Battalion letter I have placed on this thread for you

[Kathryn Steeman]

Thanks Max , I just want to download or copy the document as a reference to show where his unit was , so when I do a written report type of thing showing his service years I can attach this.

 

Thanks Andy for the timeline and places.That is great help.

 

Cheers

 

Kathryn in NZ

[stiletto_33853]

No problem Kathryn, I will scan the battalion letters to The Chronicles for the years I have not placed here for you and send them.

 

Andy

Edited 9 June , 2018 by stiletto_33853

[Kathryn Steeman]

Thanks so much Andy, they will be interesting to read. It gives you a kind of sense of what Grand-dad was doing and where.

 

Cheers

 

Kathryn in NZ

[Kathryn Steeman]

Thanks Max, I forgot that on FMP I should have put +/- 2 next to age instead of 1890 exact. Found the list of 96 John Smith's and then the census pages from there. Have now downloaded the page with John Smith 20yrs.

 

Many thanks for your patience, which I must be trying incredibly, sorry!

 

Cheers

Kathryn in NZ

[MBrockway]

2/RB pages in India Census 1911 on Ancestry (subscription required)

(In 4 parts.  For each part, the first of the paired links is for the three Census Summary pages.  P.3 of these gives the Part's totals. The second of each pair is the start page for the actual records) ...

 

The sequence is, I think, by Company, with Riflemen (incl. Acting Cpls) alphabetically, followed by coy NCO's in seniority.  The Officers begin Part 4.  The WO's and senior NCO's (SM, QMS, Bandmaster etc.) seem to be spread amongst the coys.

 

Part 1 - [300 ORs] -
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=2352&iid=rg14_34988_0623_35

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=2352&iid=rg14_34988_0627_35

 

Part 2 - [300 ORs] -
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=2352&iid=rg14_34988_0643_35

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=2352&iid=rg14_34988_0647_35

 

Part 3 - [115 ORs; 53 wives/children] -
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=2352&iid=rg14_34988_0663_35
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=2352&iid=rg14_34988_0667_35

Wives & children start here:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=2352&iid=rg14_34988_0677_35

 

Part 4 - [26 officers; 274 ORs] -
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=2352&iid=rg14_34988_0683_35
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=2352&iid=rg14_34988_0687_35

Final page is ...

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=2352&iid=rg14_34988_0696_35

 

There are also a few 2/RB men scattered elsewhere as details etc.

Meerut Cavalry Brigade Office: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_34983_0645_35

Bareilly: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_34987_0405_35

Ranikhet Telegraph office: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_34987_0425_35

Naini Tal Hill Station Office (not specifically 2/RB, but no other RB bn was in India in 1911): https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_34990_0025_35

 

Mark

 

 

 

Edited 9 June , 2018 by MBrockway

[MaxD]

You obviously anticipated my question Mark!  I didn't think I had found all the battalion with the two segments, those I have I now can see are part 1 (on which our John Smith appears on page 5) (albeit he is away from barracks that day) and part 4 on which the other John Smiths appear..

 

I wondered whether his company could be established (or have you done that already along with his boot size?) but given the way the officers are listed separately perhaps not.

 

Kathryn - no worries - only anxious that you get what you want from these exchanges.

 

Max

Edited 9 June , 2018 by MaxD
addition

[MBrockway]

11 hours ago, MaxD said:

You obviously anticipated my question Mark!  I didn't think I had found all the battalion with the two segments, those I have I now can see are part 1 (on which our John Smith appears on page 5) (albeit he is away from barracks that day) and part 4 on which the other John Smiths appear..

 

I wondered whether his company could be established (or have you done that already along with his boot size?) but given the way the officers are listed separately perhaps not.

 

Max

 

It was mainly done for Andy's benefit, but glad to see other Pals finding it useful!

 

The division of 2/RB into four parts has been determined by the census booklets having ten pages for men plus four pages for wives and children.  Each page has 30 men, so each booklet has a maximum of 300 soldiers.

 

So for Part 3 we have four pages showing 115 men in total followed by three pages of dependent wives & children. The other three parts have ten pages of 30 men/page or 300 per booklet, giving a total strength of 1,015,

 

 

 

The surnames of the wives and children can be found amongst the men in all four parts.

 

In other words, the parts do not coincide with the battalion's company divisions.

 

One might assume the four parts follow the order of precedence of the companies, but I rather suspect they've been jumbled up and Part 4 that begins with the officers is probably the 'real' first part while Part 3 with the Wives & Children is probably the 'real' last part.

 

My guess is the 'correct' order should be Part 4 -> Part 1 -> Part 2 -> Part 3 and the surnames either side of these part boundaries support this reasonably well.

 

If 2/RB are indeed listed by company, then Andy probably has enough data on the 1911 Regulars to test that hypothesis and have a stab at identifying which is which.

 

Alternatively a Pal could check some of the older men against the QSA and KSA medal rolls.  If enough can be found it might be possible to corroborate companies.

 

Mark

 

Edited 10 June , 2018 by MBrockway

[Kathryn Steeman]

Many thanks Max and Mark, your help as always is invaluable. If I was in England I would shout you guys and Andy a round of drinks!!  When it says 'Absent' does this mean they were away on patrol ? or something else ? been misbehaving and in trouble? All these things to read and digest is great!

 

Cheers

 

Kathryn in NZ

[MaxD]

Mark

 

You go above and beyond.  Many thanks for all that which will also be of use in other circumstances I know, I am most grateful.

 

Max

[Kathryn Steeman]

Hi everyone, just wondering about an earlier post saying about looking through Times Casualty list. Where about do you go to find this ??  is it on FMP, Ancestry or in National Archives ?? or do the Times have their own archives?? Still going through the RB war diary , gosh so many killed in one day of battle some days it is heart breaking!

 

Grateful to all those whom gave their life !

 

Kathryn in NZ

[MaxD]

There is a guide here:

 

http://www.researchingww1.co.uk/ww1-casualty-lists

 

and another:

 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/casualty-lists-from-the-genealogist/

 

Max

[Kathryn Steeman]

Thanks so much Max. I have the print out of George Walter Smith's service details . There are a few of pages which I have attached that I was wondering if someone could clarify what the abbreviations mean? These are his conduct record and medical records. Seems the 1911 records where he was discharged as not being suitable for service were correct as he seems to have a lot of problems with bronchitis! Mind you living conditions in East End London weren't that flash so respiratory issues were common.

 

Cheers

 

Kathryn in NZ

[MaxD]

A bit at a time!

 

The second conduct sheet is a part duplicate of the first, copies were sometimes made when man moved and his records hadn't kept up. with him.

 

In July 1915 he is absent for two days, punished with 3 days Confined to Camp and loses 2 days pay by RW (Royal Warrant - the authority for losing pay).

In Dec 1915 he is late on parade by 15 minutes (absent technically) and dirty on parade when he gets there.  Punished by two days Confined to Barracks (same as above) and loses 1 days pay.

In Jan 16 he skips parade and is given 3 extra picquets (guard duty).

 

The third sheet is the continuation of the fourth, the AF B103.  I'll do that later.  Meanwhile check over the conduct sheet and see if you still have questions I haven't covered.

 

Max

[Kathryn Steeman]

Thanks Max, that was very helpful. One question, What are the places listed on conduct sheet? They must be somewhere in England as from the AF B103 it said he didn't go to France until end of January 1916. Something tells me he wasn't really interested in Army as making his own decisions to turn up to parade when he felt like it doesn't say a lot for his respect for his unit! either that or he had been on the booze! if he was anything like his older brother John Smith!

 

Cheers

 

Kathryn in NZ

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, Kathryn Steeman said:

What are the places listed on conduct sheet?

 

 

Ockendon is in Essex on the outer fringes of London.  I'm unsure of exactly which military facility the service record refers to.  There was a large RA presence at Purfleet to the south and some KRRC and RB Reserve training battalions were at Belhus Park just to the west in 1915.

 

 

Bulford is a major Army camp in Wiltshire. Sling is part of the camp.

 

Good detailed description of the Camp in the VCH here:

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol15/pp61-70

 

I reproduce below for concvenience ...

 

Bulford camp, mostly between Nine Mile river and the foot of Beacon Hill, was a principal base of the Royal Artillery 1905–77, the base of the New Zealand expeditionary force 1914–18, and from 1977 the headquarters of South West District command. Rifle ranges were set up 1898–9, and by 1901 had been incorporated in a camp which was hutted to the south, tented to the north. The Marlborough—Salisbury road became the main road through the camp, there called Marlborough Road, but was closed a little north of it. The south part of the camp was served by a new road, Bulford Road, leading south-east from Camp Road; east of the junction Bulford Droveway also served the camp. Permanent red-brick barracks were built on a grid pattern either side of Marlborough Road c. 1910. From 1914 Sling barracks to the north replaced the tents and housed the New Zealand forces. The barracks were all called after First World War battles 1922–38, but from 1938 were renamed; Beacon (now Picton) and Kiwi barracks are east of the road, Gordon, Ward, and Wing are west of it. Sling barracks had been partly demolished by 1923. Marlborough barracks were also west of the road: they lost their identity after c. 1961 when part was merged with Ward, part with Gordon, and part with Wing barracks. Beacon barracks were rebuilt 1967–76, Gordon c. 1976. Carter barracks, a hutted camp north of Bulford Droveway, were built 1939–40 and demolished in 1978. At its most extensive, in the 1960s and 1970s, Bulford camp covered c. 640 a.

 

Mainly on the perimeter of the camp extensive housing estates, several with tree-lined roads, were built for soldiers and their families. To the north houses were built on the site of Sling barracks in 1937–8, 1952, and 1968; the Australian estate was built east of Kiwi barracks in 1963; in the north-west the Irish estate was built in 1968, and in the west the Canadian estate was built in the same year. Army housing built in 1969 in Dorset Close, Hampshire Close, and Wiltshire Close, all west of Bulford Road, linked the Canadian estate to the council housing in Churchill Avenue and John French Way.

 

Bulford camp has been provided with most of the facilities of a small town, including churches, hospitals, schools, sports grounds, a theatre, and cinemas. A new cinema opened in 1939 in Marlborough Road was standing in 1992 but not open. Before 1910 a dairy, shops, and branches of banks had opened. On the site of a hospital west of Marlborough Road, a police station, opened in 1966, a shopping centre, opened in the 1970s, and a NAAFI were built. The Saxon Warrior inn was opened in 1974. Two packs of Royal Artillery hounds have been based at the camp, harriers 1907–17 and 1919–39, for which kennels were built in 1934, and foxhounds from 1942.