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MIC for a Police Constable...........


Laird of Camster

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Ladies Gents,

 

Would be grateful if anyone can help me identify this chap. It is possible that this chap is called Charles John STAFF. Accordingly to...

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_fn=Charles&_ln=Staff&_no=&_crp=&_ttl=&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_cr1=WO+372&_dt=M&_col=200&_hb=tna

 

There are only 4 Charles STAFF's entitled to WW1 medals. With this Bobby being in H Division of the Metropolitan Police, I strongly suspect that he maybe the Queens Regiment chap. Can anyone confirm for me whether any of these 4 have the middle name John and are only entitled to a pair?

 

 

image.png.f9396979cd0dcca5cc91bd536b08308d.png

 

 

Edited by Laird of Camster
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Ancestry MICs are free to access all you have to do is register; here's what I found

image.png.f88213c842e6bf5320cd1e0085524497.png

image.png.1a2ea130dea23ce40e5627d03f7072f5.png

image.png.e5c9bd46d2a1c606c5f71c679d6a1760.png

image.png.367d3f2ea6df84d425759dbe771d45b8.png

 

Guess you can discount number 3 and number 4 is  F (Frederick) so he is out too. Sadly no J or John on the MICs,

 

Hope that helps

 

David

Edited by DavidOwen
re middle name
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Many thanks David, that's been of great help. 

 

I suppose phase two will be to see if either of these chaps have service papers that have survived that might give previous occupation as police constable. 

 

Thanks also for the pointer about MIC's being free I wasn't aware of that!!

Edited by Laird of Camster
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Have you considered contacting the Metropolitan Police Museum as they keep records on their staff that go way back and they are very willing to help? If he 're-joined then they would know from where. When I get to my laptop I will look up the contact details for you.

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1 hour ago, Laird of Camster said:

I suppose phase two will be to see if either of these chaps have service papers that have survived that might give previous occupation as police constable. 

It is likely that he was a post-war PC as he is wearing the two Great War medal ribbons. Of course, that doesn't rule out his being a pre-war PC as well: a lot of Reservists joined the police when they completed their Colour service.

 

Ron

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May be a co-incidence but the 1911 census has a 28 year old Metropolitan Police Constable, Charles John Staff, born Dalston, London, who was recorded as the married head of the household at 40 Dock Street, Whitechapel, London. He lives there with wife Eleanor Julia, (aged 30, born Stepney) and their 3 years old son Charles Joseph. The couple have been married 6 years and have had just the one child.

 

The most likely marriage was actually registered in the Mile End Old Town District of London in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1905, when a Charles John Staff married an Eleanor Julia Windsor.

 

Post August 1911 the General Registrars Office published quarterly index of births in England and Wales also included the mothers maiden name. Looking for children registered with the surname Staff, mothers maiden name Windsor in England and Wales from September 1911 to 1983, (date range on FreeBMD), brings up a grand total of two – both I suspect children of Frederick and Eleanor.

 

The birth of a Frederick W Staff was registered in the Whitechapel District in Q4 of 1911.

The birth of a Leonard C E Staff was registered in the Whitechapel District in Q1 of 1919.

 

Without reading too much into it, and of course assuming they were the children, then certainly looks like they stayed in the East End of London. Copies of the birth certificates may confirm he remained a police officer before and after the war – or the one for Leonard may confirm his fathers rank and unit if he was still serving. The long gap between the children may indicate choice or the possibility that Charles was serving in a Theatre of War that precluded the possibility of UK leave.

 

Another thread I contributed to a few months back also potentially identified a Metropolitan Police Officer as a match for a relative. Other contributors were able to eliminate him by accessing on-line sources – possibly in this case the same sources may actually confirm his war service. Unfortunately the moderators have removed the relevant images, (although I have a hazy memory that it was a leaving record for members of the Met detailing start date, career progression including rank and where based, periods where serving in the armed forces and reason for leaving, and may have been on FindMyPast). A PM to the poster HolyMoleyRE may help confiorm that.

 

Whitechapel fell within the Stepney Parliamentary Borough.  The 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters List appears to be held at the British Library according to this source:-

http://vll-minos.bl.uk/britishlibrary/~/media/subjects images/government publications/pdfs/parliamentaryconstituencies.pdf

 

The death of a Charles J Staff was recorded in the Stepney District of London in Q4 of 1951, aged 69. Other than tieing in with the age on the census, that could just be a co-incidence. However the 1951 Probate Calendar records that Charles John Staff, of 40 Dock Street, Leman Street, London E1, died on the 31st October 1951. Administration of his estate was granted at the London Court on the 12th December 1951 to Eleanor Julia Staff, widow.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Staff&yearOfDeath=1951&page=3#calendar

 

Hope some of that helps,

 

Peter

 

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Many thanks indeed to everyone who has replied to my thread. In particular PRC.

 

Perhaps if I explain how this project started, the picture turned up at a car boot sale, the person selling it also had a 1902 medal named to PC C Staff H Division. This turned out to be Charles Staff warrant number 65263 who joined the Met 07.02.1881 and was posted to N Division (Islington), over the next 26 years he also served with J & H Divisions, retiring on the  12.02.1906. I think it's fair to say that this isn't the chap in the photo, however, he did have a son with the same name who joined the Met on the 12.12.1904 warrant number 91325 and served in H Division he retired on the 16.12.1929. He was born in 1881 in Islington and having joined in 1904 wouldn't have had any previous military service. Would a chap in his 30's having only ever been a bobby really have joined the army (especially as he's only entitled to the pair would suggest that he joined after the original fervour of recruitment?) 

 

Now this is when the case starts to unravel................. I know Charles Staff jr was entitled to a 1911 Coronation medal and I also know he had several different collar numbers whilst in H Division 486H & 360H. As you can see in the picture this chap is 387H. Given this and the lack of the 1911 medal, I'm starting to suspect that this chap might not in fact be who I thought he was................

 

 

Edited by Laird of Camster
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There is a record of Police Officers leaving the Met in the National Archives.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C210748

Page 134 has a Charles John Staff,91325, H division retiring on 15/12/1929. Joined 12/12/1904. It looks like he left the Met in 1915 or 1916 before rejoining. Number is different to yours, but I'm not sure if they renumbered at any time.

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3 hours ago, Laird of Camster said:

 however, he did have a son with the same name who joined the Met on the 12.12.1904 warrant number 91325 and served in H Division he retired on the 16.12.1929. He was born in 1881 in Islington and having joined in 1904 wouldn't have had any previous military service. Would a chap in his 30's having only ever been a bobby really have joined the army (especially as he's only entitled to the pair would suggest that he joined after the original fervour of recruitment?)

 

 

There are no likely births for a a Charles with or without any middle name in the Islington District Civil records in the relevant period. The birth of a Charles John Staff was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Hackney District in the April to June quarter of 1882. Hackney District included Dalston. Those details would tie in with the Policeman identified on the census.

 

He could have volunteered in the initial fervour but opted for home service, he could have volunteered in 1915 but not completed his training or was serving with a unit that didn't enter a Theatre of War until 1916, he could have volunteered under the Derby Scheme or he could have been conscripted - all possible reasons for why he might only have a "pair". As far as I'm aware there was no blanket exemption from conscription for serving police officers - the chief constable could make an appeal to the military tribunaral on their behalf but probably that might not have gone down too well with the British public - and might also have been seen as starting down a slippery slope.

 

Hopefully with the Met sources it might be possible to reverse engineer and work out who was Police Constable 387H and when - policemen are a pretty close knit group and I've noticed when researching them that young unmarried coppers often lodge with older married ones, so this could just have been a friend who gave the Staff's the picture as a memento.

 

Good luck with your search,

Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo
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3 hours ago, busterfield said:

There is a record of Police Officers leaving the Met in the National Archives.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C210748

Page 134 has a Charles John Staff,91325, H division retiring on 15/12/1929. Joined 12/12/1904. It looks like he left the Met in 1915 or 1916 before rejoining. Number is different to yours, but I'm not sure if they renumbered at any time.

 

Many thanks for this!! I'm pretty certain that this is the right chap. 

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1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

There are no likely births for a a Charles with or without any middle name in the Islington District Civil records in the relevant period. The birth of a Charles John Staff was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Hackney District in the April to June quarter of 1882. Hackney District included Dalston. Those details would tie in with the Policeman identified on the census.

 

He could have volunteered in the initial fervour but opted for home service, he could have volunteered in 1915 but not completed his training or was serving with a unit that didn't enter a Theatre of War until 1916, he could have volunteered under the Derby Scheme or he could have been conscripted - all possible reasons for why he might only have a "pair". As far as I'm aware there was no blanket exemption from conscription for serving police officers - the chief constable could make an appeal to the military tribunaral on their behalf but probably that might not have gone down too well with the British public - and might also have been seen as starting down a slippery slope.

 

Hopefully with the Met sources it might be possible to reverse engineer and work out who was Police Constable 387H and when - policemen are a pretty close knit group and I've noticed when researching them that young unmarried coppers often lodge with older married ones, so this could just have been a friend who gave the Staff's the picture as a memento.

 

Good luck with your search,

Peter

 

Many thanks for this Peter, all very interesting stuff!!!! Certainly given me something to ponder over....................

 

 

Edited by Laird of Camster
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