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PJS

Pvt Leonard John Monks, RAMC War History

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PJS

Yes, very disappointing. 

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TEW

By a strange coincidence I found 11442 S W Riley was on board HT Madras 31/12/1918. He came down ill while on voyage from Bombay - Colombo - Hong Kong - Vancover.

 

His MIC says Date of Entry Therein - 3/7/1915 Egypt

 

Possible that Monk was posted to a Hospital Ship that went to India.

 

If you do choose to go through the files you've found so far you may end up being able to put various men into a 'similar history' group and take things from there.

TEW

 

 

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charlie962
3 minutes ago, TEW said:

Possible that Monk was posted to a Hospital Ship that went to India

Interesting. This would be peculiar to the RAMC. Does this mean that a group of men could have embarked same ship, same date but disembarked on a variety of dates  and some not disembarking at all?  Hence a variety of dates for Medal Roll ?

 

Charlie

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TEW

No, I don't think so. The records for the 30/5/15 Egypt men so far show they left UK on different dates on different vessels and arrived in Egypt on various dates including 30/5/15. Their B.104 forms don't seem to be giving the unit posted to on arrival in Egypt only later transfers to Hospitals, CCS, FA, or Hospital Ships (Transport or Ambulance).

 

The HT Madras had been working in the Med, Alex - Mudros - Malta and post-armistice was returning wounded to India, Ceylon, China, Japan then Canada.

 

I had wondered if joining a Hospital Ship that eg left Devonport on 30/5/15 might be the date for entering a theatre of war. Therefore the embarkation date is more relevant than the disembarkation but that does't pan out across the few records.

 

Leppard was posted to HS Guildford Castle two months after arriving in Egypt, I think he had service with 17 GH first. No Idea at present where the Guildford Castle worked but Leppard was with the vessel for about a year. He may therefore have been on a trip to India within that year. Monk may have been in a simliar position and just had some leave in India before a return journey.

TEW

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PJS
Posted (edited)

Thank you both for that input. As mentioned previously the only other information I have about my grandfather is an 8-page letter he wrote to his mother on November 4/5, 1918 while he was "stuck" in Deolali. Below is the executive summary:

Letter of Nov 4/5th 1918:
Says that he was “stuck” in Deolali
Says that he spoke the language well enough for ordinary needs
Says that he had a bottle of (Indian) scent in his box unopened for 12 months
Says that they were 4 men per tent and 24 men in his section. Pvt Thomas was one of them
Says that they shared everything, including oil for their rifles
Their tents were next to the Muslim (Mohammedan) burial grounds
Says he had seen the Pyramids at Giza
References that he had seen the Temple of Sheba; River Darna(?) & the sacred bridge of RAM. In India.

 

My conclusion is that he was possibly in India for about a year. For what that's worth.  I was surprised that he references that his section shared rifle oil since I have read that RAMC ORs did not carry rifles. He did also talk about having to be on a snap parade in Deolali and perhaps the rifles were simply part of a parade requirement. Just a thought.

 

I also went through several more RAMC pension records over the weekend and found nothing useful. 50% of the service records match the MIC deployment date of 30-5-195 and 50% don't.

 

Frustrating but not entirely unexpected ...

 

Edited by PJS
formatting

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TEW

There are some peculiar annotations added to the various B.103 forms. EG McEvoy’s B.103 seems to double up as a B.248 which is an attestation form? It is annotated as; D of E, Partics. & Qualifications taken from RO EEF 1193/17. I take that as meaning his Date of Entry was taken from Record Office EEF list 1193/17 presumably of 1917, quite why I don’t know. 1914-15 star wasn’t sanctioned until 1918.

The first entry on his B.103 is dated circa Jan 1917 and says; Mobilized with 21 GH appears on MR? 21GH d/Dec 1916.

Can't find much on 21 GH or when it was mobilized, not sure what MR 21 GH was.

 Leppard’s B.103 is annotated with his dates of embarkation/disembarkation as being on RO EEF 564/17 under 17GH. For some reason these dates have no connection to his medal roll date.

Date entitlements for the 1914-15 Star  do vary in different theatres. For Egypt that’s from 5/11/1914, for Gallipoli it’s from 25/4/1915.

I wonder if these RO EEF lists are being submitted for verification for Date of Entry into a theatre but also compared against other information e.g. from the ‘Services at home or abroad’ sheet. Sometimes the two agree, other times they don’t.

TEW

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charlie962
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TEW said:

Can't find much on 21 GH or when it was mobilized, not sure what MR 21 GH was.

21st General Hospital Alexandria according to this thread (amongst others). Given its context, MR sounds like Mobilization Roll ?

Tew, you are doing well to keep track. My brain hurts already.

Charlie

 

PS maureene previously provided this most useful link to History Medical Services in Egypt, showing 21 GH arrived beginning of June 1915 ?

 

The arrival of 4 additional GHs in March and June 1915 would require a lot of Medical personnell and probably caused a confusion of dates of entry.

 

                     836202805_HospitalsinEgypt1915.JPG.8a2e4703eef47812aafa73041d6872cc.JPG

Edited by charlie962

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PJS

I received the following picture of Leonard Monks yesterday, which is the first one I have seen of him in uniform. I have no date but I'm guessing that it was prior to shipping out to Egypt so he would be 16 or 17 years old. He certainly looks young.

 

Leonard-John-Monks.jpg.f94d586e04a7790599c3251489e04417.jpg

 

I would be curious to know if anyone can identify his role based upon the blanket and satchel he is carrying.

 

Peter

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charlie962
Posted (edited)

Is that 'blanket' actually a stretcher ?

 

PS  Great photo.

Edited by charlie962

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PJS

 

10 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Is that 'blanket' actually a stretcher ? 

 

PS  Great photo.

 

I googled "WW1 RAMC stretcher bearer" and found lots of pictures of RAMC men standing around stretchers but did not find any similarly uniformed RAMC soldiers. Yes, I'm assuming that it's either a stretcher or comfort blanket (or something along those lines). My hope is that it identifies him as a specific category of RAMC which might help us associate him with either a CCS or Field Ambulance, etc. when first deployed in Egypt.

 

Peter

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TEW

It is a good photo and he is very young looking.

 

I just tried googling images of RAMC men, not all have lanyards on left shoulder. Not sure if that'll help.

 

TEW

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PJS
20 minutes ago, TEW said:

It is a good photo and he is very young looking.

 

I just tried googling images of RAMC men, not all have lanyards on left shoulder. Not sure if that'll help. 

 

TEW

 

Yes, I will certainly dig into the lanyard. It surely must designate "something".

 

Peter

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charlie962

I haven't found anything about the blanket/stretcher yet but It is clearly not a standard blanket. It has reinforcement and possibly loops for passing poles.

 

If he was a stretcher bearer then normally the RAMC acted from the Regimental Aid Post to the Field ambulance and then CCS.  It was regimental stretcher bearers that cleared the battlefield back to R.A.P. There was cross-over between RAP and FA. I'm not sure if Salonika had a different set-up ?

 

Of course the photo may have been taken in UK whilst he was training and he is decked out with gear that he wouldn't normally have to use. Why the riding crop ?- not for beating the patients, I trust.

 

Two steps forward, one back..

 

Charlie

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PJS
5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I haven't found anything about the blanket/stretcher yet but It is clearly not a standard blanket. It has reinforcement and possibly loops for passing poles.

 

If he was a stretcher bearer then normally the RAMC acted from the Regimental Aid Post to the Field ambulance and then CCS.  It was regimental stretcher bearers that cleared the battlefield back to R.A.P. There was cross-over between RAP and FA. I'm not sure if Salonika had a different set-up ?

 

Of course the photo may have been taken in UK whilst he was training and he is decked out with gear that he wouldn't normally have to use. Why the riding crop ?- not for beating the patients, I trust. 

 

Two steps forward, one back..

 

Charlie

 

The beatings will continue until morale improves, perhaps?

 

Peter

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charlie962

or perhaps:      if you can't join them, beat them .

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PJS
11 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

or perhaps:      if you can't join them, beat them .

 

OK. You win.

 

I did notice that a number of photos of RAMC OR men had what appear to be riding crops (aka beating sticks) which is something I have not seen with photos of, say, Infantry men. I also saw a couple of field photos (RAMC men posing outside their tents, etc.) where several men were holding what appeared to be long thin sticks (maybe 3ft long or so) so perhaps they are in some way connected to the blanket business.

 

Peter

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TEW

The swagger stick is usually no more than a studio prop. The photo may date to when he first joined up and was in training. if so, he may not have been assigned to a particular unit as yet.

 

TEW

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PJS
Posted (edited)

Had a major breakthrough this weekend when i received several images (from my brother) from a photo album of my Grandfather's. Apparently, he was deployed in "Persia" for some time in 1916 before joining the HMHS Vita on or before December 1916.

 

Persia-1916.PNG.8203a09d50105aeaa7053d5e0865df25.PNG

 

HMHS-Vita-1916-19.PNG.20439368b46fbe7dbe71536390e2bc75.PNG

 

I have the HMHS Vita's war diaries from June 1917 to December 1919 and so I now know exactly where he was during that period. He left HMHS Vita in January 1919, disembarking with 2 other RAMC men in Bombay.

 

03-01-19-Disembarked-Bombay.PNG.265134892d3d6dce902cd536fa9db529.PNG

 

So now I'm looking to fill in the blanks between 30-05-1915 (arrival in Egypt) and late 1916 when he joined the Vita. Unfortunately, I cannot find the Vita logs for 1916 and 1917 (before June) at the NA.  Still, I'm thrilled to be able to report such progress.

 

Peter

 

 

Edited by PJS
added source

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charlie962
Posted (edited)

What an excellent result. HMHS Vita had quite a career WW1 and WW2. Worth googling the name (if you haven't already because you are too busy on Vol 4 Medical Services History ?)as you will find other souces of info. remarkable that Monks is mentioned by name. Do keep us posted on further research results please.

 

Charlie

 

eg this ref to papers of  Australian Nurse E L Horne who was on the Vita, but I cannot get the AWM41 981  reference to work on the Australian War Memorial site. (perhaps this particular item is not digitised)

Edited by charlie962

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TEW

Yes, excellent result. Not at home at present but I seem to recall another man's service file had HS Neuralia and HS Vita on his B.103.

 

I did check all the available HS diaries held by TNA and they do seem a bit sparse for the early war period.

 

TEW 

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PJS

Yesterday, I transcribed the movements of the HMHS Vita for the period I have (June 1917 - January 1919) and it is a very interesting read; Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Tanzania, Mozambique, S Africa, Kenya & India. The war diaries list all the embarking/disembarking RAMC ORs (with Service Numbers) plus the Nursing Sisters. God Bless the CO of the HMHS Vita!  I will transcribe them next and post them all here in case a service record pops-up and fills in some more blanks.

 

Peter

 

 

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PJS
Posted (edited)

Below is the HMHS Vita's log transcription for embarking/disembarking RAMC ORs and Nursing Staff:

 

19 Jun, 1917                      Sister Mrs GIBSON QAIMNS (R) who was acting matron disembarked

22 Jun, 1917                      Sister S M BONSER QAMNSI embarked as acting Matron

                                           Sister  M McINTOSH QAIMNS (R) joined to fill a vacancy

14 Jul, 1917                       Sister CHAPMAN AANS transferred

                                           Sister SAVAGE QAIMNS (R) transferred

                                           Sister  M McINTOSH QAMNSI (R) transferred

15-20 July, 1917                Accommodation brought up to 436 by replacing swing cots w/ fixed double tiered cots in wards 1, 2 &4.

25 Jul, 1917                       Sister HUNT QAMNSI (T) joined

16 Sept, 1917                    Miss HORNE AANS joined as Matron in place

                                          Miss BONSER QAMNSS transferred

17 Sept, 1917                    Staff Nurse S BLACK AANS joined for temp duty

 

11 Oct, 1917                      Miss HORNE AANS & Staff Nurse S BLACK AANS transferred.

12 Oct, 1917                      Nursing Sister SARGENT QAIMNSI (R) joined as acting Matron

13 Oct, 1917                      Temporary Nurse N. FTIZGERALD transferred

                                          83130 Pvt NEWBOLD AE RAMC joined

23 Oct, 1917                      Pvt CHADWICK RAMC joined

                                          Pvt McMINN RAMC joined

24 Oct, 1917                      Temporary Nurse Mrs ANDERSON joined

 

12 Feb, 1918                     Pvt VOGWILL J L No6 Co RAMC Att 32 BSH Died of Malaria (Buried at Sea)

24 Mar, 1918                     Nursing Sister D. HUNT QAMNSS (T) was transferred sick

10 Apr, 1918                      Nursing Sister Mrs Over QASMNSS (T) disembarked

18 May, 1918                     Probationer Nurse Miss L FINLAYSON SAMNS embarked

25 May, 1918                     Probationer Nurse Miss L FINLAYSON SAMNS disembarked

1, Jun, 1918                       Cape Town. RAMC ORs = 18, Indian ORs = 51. Left for 5-day shore leave.

1 Aug, 1918                       58732 Cpl JS CHARNOCK RAMC disembarked

7 Aug, 1918                       97391 Pvt F PICKUP RAMC embarked

                                          7869 AF SAWYER RAMC embarked

17 Aug, 1918                     Staff Nurse T MUNDAY AANS embarked

                                           Staff Nurse M BYRNE AANS embarked

                                           Staff Nurse I BRADSHAW AANS embarked

                                           Staff Nurse E MONAGHAN AANS embarked

                                           Staff Nurse M DARNELL AANS embarked

6 Sep, 1918                        Sister Miss HILDA JONES embarked as Sister in Charge

9 Sep, 1918                        Staff Nurse Miss E BENT disembarked

12 Sep, 1918                     46268 Cpl DWYER I RAMC embarked

                                          21522 Pvt ELLIS H RAMC embarked

                                          Sister Miss MARY MORROW AANS embarked as Sister in Charge

                                          Sister Miss HILDA JONES disembarked

13 Sep, 1918                    11434 Pvt MONKS L J RAMC transferred to Deolali for training w/ Detachment 1st Btn South Staffs Regt

                                          68069 Pvt KNIGHT T RAMC transferred to Deolali for training w/ Detachment 1st Btn South Staffs Regt

14 Oct, 1918                      97391 Pvt PICKUP F RAMC granted pay increase

                                          Asst. Surg. F G STEINHOF is granted 30-days leave

15 Oct, 1918                      Staff Nurse Miss LILIAN PENROSE AANS embarked

19 Oct, 1918                      Miss SARGENT QAIMNSI(R) is struck off strength from 6 Sep, 1918

21 Nov, 1918                     Sister Miss M MORROW AANS disembarked

                                          Staff Nurse T MUNDAY AANS disembarked

                                          Staff Nurse M BYRNE AANS disembarked

                                          Staff Nurse I BRADSHAW AANS disembarked

                                          Staff Nurse E MONAGHAN AANS disembarked

22Nov, 1918                      40786 Pvt CLOUGH A RAMC disembarked (transferred) sick

                                          21522 Pvt ELIIS H RAMC disembarked (transferred) sick

26 Nov, 1918                     Pvt JH CUSS RAMC disembarked

                                          43480 Pvt HOLFORD F RAMC embarked

29 Nov, 1918                     Asst. Surg. F G STEINHOFF MD transferred to East Persia

30 Nov, 1918                     11434 Pvt MONKS L J RAMC rejoined

                                          68069 Pvt KNIGHT T RAMC rejoined

                                          7869 Pvt SAWYER A F RAMC rejoined

                                          57731 Pvt COLE G RAMC rejoined

3 Dec, 1918                       62089 Pvt ADSHEAD F L RAMC embarked

                                          84657 Pvt KENSHAW W E RAMC embarked

                                          79702 Pvt MARSHALL H J RAMC embarked

                                          56509 Pvt LYONS T RAMC disembarked

                                          Matron Mrs J E MOLLOY AANS embarked

                                          Sister Miss C McKichrie AANS embarked

                                          Sister Miss VERA DESAILLY AANS embarked

                                          Staff Nurse Miss ANNIE MORRIS AANS embarked

                                          Miss L PENROSE ANNS rejoined

4 Dec, 1918                       31595 Pvt HATCH A J RAMC promoted acting Corporal w/o Pay

                                          105266 Pvt CHADWICK L W RAMC promoted acting Corporal w/o Pay

                                           Pvt HOLFORD F RAMC awarded 6d per diem as operating theatre orderly

                                           Staff Nurse Miss L BECKER embarked

17 Dec, 1918                     46368 Cpl DWYER W RAMC embarked

 

2 Jan, 1919                        Nursing Sister Miss A MORRIS AANS transferred sick

3 Jan, 1919                        60059 Pvt DENTON J H RAMC transferred sick

                                           67077 Pvt HOOLEY A RAMC disembarked

                                           68069 Pvt KNIGHT T RAMC disembarked

                                           11434 Pvt MONKS L RAMC disembarked [in Bombay. Permanently]

 

67077 Pvt HOOLEY does have a Service Record but there's not anything in it of any interest. I have not yet tried to find information on any of the others.

 

Peter

 

Edited by PJS
Fixed Typos. Added Link to Service Record.

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charlie962
1 hour ago, PJS said:

16 Sept, 1917                    Miss HORNE AANS joined as Matron in place

That is the E L Horne I referred to in my post 14 above. Photos etc at AWM.

 

Well done for putting those names on-line.

 

Charlie

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PJS
11 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

That is the E L Horne I referred to in my post 14 above. Photos etc at AWM. 

 

Well done for putting those names on-line.

 

Charlie

 

Yes, I saw that too. I thought it Interesting that she was onboard for less than a month but is widely quoted. I was not able to find the referenced article on AWM either.

 

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TEW

Cracking transcription for the Vita.

 

Leppard was the other man whose record shows service on the Vita. 12/8/1916 Mustapha, Posted base depot ex 'HS Neuralia' ex 'HS Vita".

TEW

 

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