2nd Lt F A Rayner - Manchester Regiment

[8055Bell]

Hi All,

I'm trying to find the names of this chap from 17th Battalion.  This is what I have:-

2nd Lt F A Rayner/Raynor taken on strength 17th Bttn 9/11/1916. 2nd Lt  B Coy Wounded Heninel  23/4/1917. Promoted Lt 5/3/1918. survived no SWB. BWM/VM from Manchesters.  Issued in 1935.

All help appreciated.

Tim

[IPT]

There's an officer's file for 2nd Lt Frank Rayner, Manchester Regiment - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C726563

 

Struggling to find his commission in the LG so far.

[8055Bell]

Thanks IPT.  I think there were two 2/Lt F Rayners and the one you have is the wrong one.  The MIC and VM/BWM roll show two and the one mentioned in the War Diary is certainly F A Rayner or Raynor. Anecdotally he probably served as an Other Rank before an OCB.  I can't see him though.  He was not with Inns of Court OTC or Artists Rifles for officer training.

[PRC]

I had a quick look in the Monthly Army List for May 1917, (nothing more sophisticated than I had it open anyway!) and saw that Probationary 2nd Lieutenant F.A Rayner of the 17th Battalion was in that rank from the 5th September 1916 - which is only 4 days before he was taken on the strength of the battalion.

 

What also struck me was that a number of the other 2/Lt's in the same Battalion had the same seniority date. They were F.E. Clayton, F.E. Holmes, T. Longworth, F.A. Orritt, W.H. Palmer, H.J. Cole and E.G Woodward. A Google Search for "London Gazette" plus those surnames brings up the Supplement to the London Gazette of the 6th December 1916, page 11926.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29850/supplement/11926/data.pdf

The London Gazette website was down for maintenance, but the cached version of the webpage on Google tells me that Rayner was posted from the North Staffs Regiment, as were two other new 2Lts who were presumably posted to other battalions in the Manchester Regiment. (For the record they were J.H. Addenbrooke who died, aged 20, on the 20/11/1916 whilst serving with the 11th Battalion, and A.J . Elkington).

 

That still doesn't give you any first names but I did have one thought. I understood that officers had to apply for their medals. If they were issued in 1935 then there could well be a possibility that he was still at the same address when the 1939 National Register was compiled. Is there anything on the MiC or Service Medal Roll to show where the medals were sent to?

 

Cheers,

Peter

[IPT]

There's no address on the MIC, unfortunately.

 

Intriguingly, there is another card for a 32545 Frederick Augustus Rayner, North Staffordshire Regiment, although it could just be a coincidence.

[8055Bell]

Hi Peter,

F.E. Clayton, F.E. Holmes, T. Longworth, F.A. Orritt, W.H. Palmer, H.J. Cole and E.G Woodward all trained with Inns of Court OTC before 3rd Manchesters and att to 17th Bttn.  The date for Rayner may be coincidental, or he may also have passed through 3rd Bttn.

I need to look at the North Staffs connection.  Frederick Augustus looks intreresting.

Hope LG site works again soon.

Arthur James Elikington was from Rugby.  His MIC only shows service with N Staffs.

John Homfray Addenbrooke  CWGC note the 11th Manchesters attachment.  Previously 18th (PBS) RF. France 14/11/1915.

Thanks

Edited 28 May , 2018 by 8055Bell

[PRC]

18 hours ago, IPT said:

There's no address on the MIC, unfortunately.

 

Intriguingly, there is another card for a 32545 Frederick Augustus Rayner, North Staffordshire Regiment, although it could just be a coincidence.

 

Occasionally on the later claims the address turns up on the Service Medal Roll.

 

I can see the card listed at the National Archive but strangely couldn't find it on Ancestry - and I dug out my old password to my "free" Ancestry account especially so I could look at it :-)

 

10 hours ago, 8055Bell said:

Hi Peter,

F.E. Clayton, F.E. Holmes, T. Longworth, F.A. Orritt, W.H. Palmer, H.J. Cole and E.G Woodward all trained with Inns of Court OTC before 3rd Manchesters and att to 17th Bttn.  The date for Rayner may be coincidental, or he may also have passed through 3rd Bttn.

I need to look at the North Staffs connection.  Frederick Augustus looks intreresting.

Hope LG site works again soon.

Arthur James Elikington was from Rugby.  His MIC only shows service with N Staffs.

John Homfray Addenbrooke  CWGC note the 11th Manchesters attachment.  Previously 18th (PBS) RF. France 14/11/1915.

Thanks

 

London Gazette is now up, (18.30 BST) so hopefully you can now see all the names listed. Rayner is listed straight after Woodward so potentially he was coming from a different source to those 7.

 

The National Archive catalogue entry for the long service papers for both Arthur James Elkington and John "Humfray" Addenbrooke only shows them as North Staffordshire Regiment. I had another look at the May 1917 Army List and could not find Arthur Elkington with either the North Staffs or the Manchesters, (Mark 1 eyeball search) or anywhere in the British Army (Adobe Reader search).

 

If, (and it’s always a big if), Frederick Augustus Rayner, the North Staffs man, was born in England and Wales, then the GRO Birth Index only gives you three likely matches:-

 

Frederick Augustus born Q2 1868 Wandworth District

Frederick Augustus born Q3 1881 Sunderland District

Frederick Augustus born Q2 1892 Eastbourne District.

 

(There are no Fredrick \ Fredric \ Frederic \ Fred Augustus’s).

 

To make life a little bit easier, the oldest and youngest are father and son. Both were recorded on the 1911 census of England and Wales living at 3 Willowfield Square, Eastbourne. Father, aged 42 and born Wandsworth, Surrey was a Master Bootmaker with his own Shop. He records himself as an employer. He had been married 22 years and has had 7 children, all then still alive. The one of them we are interested in was aged 18, born Eastbourne, and was working as a Builders Clerk. His older brother Sidney, (20), was an Accountants Clerk.

 

The Sunderland born man, (mis-transcribed on the genealogy source I have access to as Raynor, although looking at the hand writing either spelling could apply), was recorded as the 22 year old married head of the household at 19/20 Thornton Place, Sunderland. He is working from home as a Confectioner, so presumably lives over the shop and he also lists himself as an employer. He and wife Maria have had two children so far.

 

There is no obvious Frederick Rayner \ Raynor with a Staffordshire connection on the 1911 census.

 

The Sunderland man would die, aged 46 in the Sunderland District in Q3 of 1928. The 1929 probate calendar shows him as deceased on the 29th June 1928.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Rayner&yearOfDeath=1929&page=2#calendar

(If it was him then any application for his medals obviously came from someone else)

 

The oldest one would die in the Eastbourne District, aged 78, in Q2 of 1946. The 1946 Probate Calendar shows him still living at 3 Willowfield Square, deceased 5th July 1946.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Rayner&yearOfDeath=1946&page=2#calendar

 

The youngest is most likely the 81 year old Frederick Augustus who died in the Henley District of Oxfordshire in Q1 of 1974. That man was born 6th April 1892. However there is no obvious probate for him.

 

He would though have been young enough to have been recalled at the outbreak of WW2, so probably worth checking the 1939 Register – the scanned page on FindMyPast usually includes the first column of the facing page which contains notes about mainly Civil Defence Wartime Roles, but sometimes has notes like “Army Reserve of Officers”. (Haven’t seen how Ancestry have done this but presumably they are using the same images).

 

Not a magic bullet I’m afraid but may also be worth checking the newspapers for Eastbourne and Sunderland to see if either man gets a mention in connection with the Great War.

 

Good luck,

Peter

Edited 28 May , 2018 by PRC
Typo

[charlie2]

The medals to the North Staffs Raynor were issued to a Pte 7th Bn. Frederick has been abbreviated to „Fred‘k“ in the rolls.

Charlie

[8055Bell]

Thanks both,

I thought Rayner may still have a file held by the MoD, but couldn't find one here FOI Response

I know Capt J G Madden's file is there, so assume the list is reasonably accurate.  John served in WWII and that's why his papaers haven't yet been released. This leaves a big question as to where Rayner's Service File(s) could be.  It's not apperenently listed by TNA and he's not in the records held by MoD.  Lost or burned perhaps...

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, 8055Bell said:

he's not in the records held by MoD

The spreadsheet index to such records of those born pre 1901 is not 100% accurate. There are obvious anomolies just looking at the spreadsheet but I believe there are other errors or omissions. Other threads have commented that it is still worth contacting MoD ?

Charlie

[clk]

Hi Tim,

 

I wonder if it might be worth asking the Manchester Regiment Group Forum - link

 

Regards

Chris