Now identified: The "Rev'd J. Boyan" = The Rev'd John Morgan, Chaplain to the Forces

[Matlock1418]

Seeking more details of the above: forename(s), wartime & other service, personal details etc. please. 

Source material is a burial record in February 1918 in Leominster, Herefordshire, in which he performed the ceremony - the entry is in very clear handwriting, as above.

Have already tried/searched: Museum of Army Chaplaincy, Officers' Service Records (TNA) and Medal cards - to no avail. ???

And tried a number of possible surname name variants ???

Google, etc. ???

Not much I know, but from smaller acorns GWF has been known to grow large oaks!

Thanks, in hope ...

 

Edit: been thinking, possibly Boyne ???  Mis-heard / mis-recorded?

Edited 27 May , 2018 by Matlock1418
Addition

[alf mcm]

  I've looked through an Army List for 1918, and the only likely candidate I can find is;-

Temporary Chaplain 4th Class J.F. Bowen, Roman Catholic, commissioned 12/11/1917.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

 

[keithmroberts]

The Museum of Army Chaplaincy does not generally hold records for Roman Catholic Chaplains.

 

I had this from David Blake the curator at the Museum in response to a query.

The Roman Catholic bishop of Southwark was the lead between the War Office and the Roman Catholic chaplains. He had the responsibility of supplying Catholic chaplains to the Army.  I am unaware of any surviving records on individuals at Southwark.

 There’s a new book out on Catholic Priests who served as Chaplains in WW1 see http://www.gracewing.co.uk/page511.html

 

Keith

 

[Wexflyer]

9 minutes ago, keithmroberts said:

The Roman Catholic bishop of Southwark was the lead between the War Office and the Roman Catholic chaplains. He had the responsibility of supplying Catholic chaplains to the Army.  I am unaware of any surviving records on individuals at Southwark.

 

 There’s a new book out on Catholic Priests who served as Chaplains in WW1 see http://www.gracewing.co.uk/page511.html

 

Keith

 

 

I don't believe this is fully accurate. I have read that when Bishop Bourne of Southwark was elevated to be Archbishop (1903) and later Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, he kept responsibility for providing Catholic chaplains to the army. In addition, Irish bishops (of course) did not accept his jurisdiction in this matter.

Edited 27 May , 2018 by Wexflyer

[keithmroberts]

Wexflyer -  I'm only quoting - you may well be right. I have tried to find a source of records for a Roman Catholic chaplain with no success beyond his army file.

 

I have just checked the national Archives and found this reference  http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4781458

 

I will add it to the list for my next visit to Kew.

 

Keith

EDIT - there are three or four additional  relevant files at Kew, one of which dated 1903  refers to the Appointment of the Bishop of Southwark as ecclesiastical superior of Roman Catholic commissioned chaplains. I can't see anything in the index mentioning a transfer of responsibility  to his later role, Possibly it was not regarded as necessary.

 

[Matlock1418]

Wow! - Thanks all for your swift input :-)

Sadly not yet found the Reverend J Boyan.

Names eh?  Always a crippler!

You have educated me more on a wider topic I know so very little about, and thrown another cat amongst the pigeons!

I hadn't really thought much about religion but was veering off towards an older man, perhaps with a pre-war appointment/commission [thus no chaplain's interview card] & home service only [so no MIC].  Couldn't find a London Gazette either.

"The Rev'd" would steer me towards Anglican as I would have thought Roman Catholic would have been "Father" [there I go showing my ignorance again I am sure - in civilian life & records anyway I presume], but ...

The burial does not help as the soldier's religion is not known - cemetery records do not have religion recorded for individuals [so the local records office tell me] and the cemetery has mixed religion plots.

Any ideas on how to research religion for the deceased? [as that would presumably determine the Chaplain too] 

Sadly no army service record for him to help either - he was only 18 and HS in training [TR # / 53rd Bn but cause/circumstances of his death at Kinmel Park not yet known, but that is another story]

Are there any civilian records generally helping out with religion?

As deceased was later joined by a sister and her husband [in the 1960's] I'm thinking perhaps looking for her marriage record for religion, always assuming not a mixed religion marriage???   And .... ???  Research steers towards and within this area welcome!

In hope ...

 

An aside = How would Chaplains be referred to in the military? - by religious 'rank' [very unsure about those civilian ones] or military rank? [Military ones seem a bit 'double-barrelled' too]  I'm guessing "Sir" would be a good fallback starter for most like me, or "Chaplain", but would Reverend or Father be used?  And would / how would Chaplain and their classes fit into speech? [I think Chaplain (Class 4) = Captain, I thus presume 3, 2 & 1 step up accordingly]. How used?  I guess some book reading would help but the limited one for a Chaplain I have actually read didn't help, or it certainly hasn't stuck since it was so long ago!!!  Simple suggestions for simple books welcome. [Keith - thanks, yours is already noted]

Edited 28 May , 2018 by Matlock1418

[keithmroberts]

The Museum of Army Chaplaincy have index cards for most Anglican chaplains from late 1914 or thereabouts. Chaplains who went out very early, whether regular army chaplains, or the first of the TCF's seem to have been processed without a formal structure.

Apart from the Anglicans and Roman Catholic chaplains there were also nonconformist chaplains, and additionally many clergy (Anglican) served with the YMCA at bases around the world, but remained civilians, and hence were not regarded as chaplains.

Some chaplains, especially older ones, or  in some cases those who were already in that role in the UK,  remained attached to bases in the UK throughout the war and would not be entitled to any service medals.

 I don't think there is any comparable link to naval chaplains, other than the navy lists and service records, and obviously a mention in Crockfords if they were Anglican.The service was inland so they would probably be a red herring anyway.

Because I have been researching a whole platoon of clergy from Portsea who served as chaplains  I have acquired  a copy of the 1923 Crockfords, but can't see any likely candidates there.

 

 

Books - One of Linda Parker's books is I think just a tidying up of her PHD thesis and it can be found at nil cost here  http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/4495/1/ParkerL13PhD.pdf 

Apart from that Edward Madigan's books are well respected, and the doyen seems to be Michael Snape, but I can't afford his titles.

 

EDIT   The Museum of Army Chaplaincy has index cards for Temporary Chaplains to the Forces only. Those with a permanent appointment to the services would not be in the card index.

 

Keith

 

 

[HERITAGE PLUS]

This may be a complete red herring but there was a J.W.Boyan who was a CofE Chaplain in/to the RAF in WW2.

 

http://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/96272362?mode=transcription

 

Dave

[keithfazzani]

The current term of address for a chaplain is Padre, I assume it was the same in WW1. The term Reverend as a form of address is an Americanism which is not used in the UK. I say not used but seems to have crept in. Current correct forms of address for C of E clergy are to be found here. There is no reason to believe they have changed https://www.crockford.org.uk/faq/how-to-address-the-clergy Also I imagine clergy of all denominations I can think of would have been addressed as Padre. Padre is Spanish (also I believe Italian) for Father and comes from the latin Pater. 

Edited 28 May , 2018 by keithfazzani

[Matlock1418]

Thanks for your further posts.

Keith - phew c.300 pages - not read yet, but thanks 

Dave - eek! ???

Keith - "Padre" sounds right.  However "The Rev'd" was entered in the [civilian] burial record 100 years ago, so has crept into the UK for a while ;-) and I think in civvy street you would say the  local church "Vicar" is the Reverend xxxxx , with the Right Reverend xxxxx being a higher 'rank' still [don't know if I should have capitalised the "The"]

Still looking ...

[keithmroberts]

There is no mention of any  C of E clergyman with the surname Boyan in the 1923 Crockfords, so I suspect that it is unfortunately a red herring.

 

But

 

I have another red herring - sorry - he is too young.

 

At Ampleforth College. 

 

	First name(s)	Last name(s)	Role	DOB	Sex	Occupation	Marital status	Schedule	Schedule Sub Number
	John B	Boyan	Inmate	11 Mar 1910	Male	Clerk In Holy Order	Single	3	4

 

 

I was all exited then, Edited to remove my confidence.

 

Keith

 

[keithfazzani]

On reflection I am surprised that the cemetery doesn't have a separate Roman Catholic plot, at least I feel pretty certain it would have done so 100 years ago. Of course I can't be certain. I would suggest that they would have had mixed denomination plots and a Roman Catholic Plot. Worth checking. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, keithfazzani said:

On reflection I am surprised that the cemetery doesn't have a separate Roman Catholic plot, at least I feel pretty certain it would have done so 100 years ago. Of course I can't be certain. I would suggest that they would have had mixed denomination plots and a Roman Catholic Plot. Worth checking. 

 

   Agreed- There may be a way into this from the other side-in order to get down to which brand of soap suds this chap was representing-whoever he actually was:

 

1) The cemetery-  Cof E? RC plot?  At worst, a call to the cemetery should elucidate.

 

2)  The person being buried-  if there is a name, then check that for clues-it may give a guide to as to which brand of soap suds- eg -without being too stereotypical and using name techniques from family history studies- if the person  interred is "Patrick  O'Reilly"  born in Tipperary may be a pointer to being statistically more likely to be RC. Worth a go for clues.

 

    The second line of attack-which you have tried-is that the typographers of the modern-day Grauniad had ancestors who did much the same-then it may be a spelling mistake (I recollect the weeks and weeks I spent dragging through "Ancestry" on false trails for local casualties in the Press who were just other casualties known to me but spelt wrong)

 

     Boyan is uncommon as a surname- Boylan/Boylen would be my first line of attack- then BOYL*   The latter gives one man with the right initial-but I would not care to guess which brand  of soap suds he played for:

Captain Joseph BOYLE Army Chaplain's Department.

War Office: Officers' Services, First World War, Long Number Papers (numerical). Officers Services (including Civilian Dependants and Military Staff Appointments): Long Service Papers. Captain Joseph BOYLE Army Chaplain's Department.

Held by:	The National Archives - War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
Date:	1914 - 1922
Reference:	WO 339/104125
Subjects:	Armed Forces (General Administration) | Army | Conflict | Operations, battles and campaigns

[michaeldr]

I'm guessing that this is the burial record

and wonder if any of our tech-wizards can enlarge it to good effect?

 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

Just now, michaeldr said:

I'm guessing that this is the burial record

and wonder if any of our tech-wizards can enlarge it to good effect?

 

 

 

 

Continued thanks ...

I'm not a relative so don't feel at liberty to provide the name of the casualty but a quick Google suggests his surname is English in origin - so ... your guess is as good as mine [not wanting to stereotype either!]  His birth and 1901 and 1911 Censuses all from Leominster though.  [Looks like his father's do too]

Have already spoken to the Hereford Council Cemeteries and Crematorium department / records - They have been very helpful.

They have already said the religion of casualty is unknown and all plots are all mixed - apparently the council took over the cemetery from its earlier 'management' so perhaps their records/knowledge is not 100% at first enquiry

The burial record page heading reads "BURIALS in the Burial Ground of the Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of the BOROUGH of LEOMINSTER in the County of HEREFORD, in the Year One thousand nine hundred and seventeen & eighteen"

Will give them another call once the Bank Holiday is over.

The page has a small reference at top right of right hand page [each line crosses two pages] = Burials 6. Shaw & Sons, Fetter Lane. E.C. H57  ( 3731J) I think - I got all excited when I misread E.C as R.C.!!! - think this must be a printers [stock?] reference.

Any help to anyone?

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, michaeldr said:

I'm guessing that this is the burial record

and wonder if any of our tech-wizards can enlarge it to good effect?

 

 

 

 

Was typing my previous reply as this image came in - good detectivework [as is most common on GWF :-)]

Casualty name appears to be WARBURTON, John Thomas

This casualty's grave also contains John Thomas Williams and his wife Ada [thought to be the casualty's sister] both buried in the 1960's.

Can anyone find a marriage record, perhaps containing a religion?

Or other record???

Edited 28 May , 2018 by Matlock1418
minor typo correction/addition

[Wexflyer]

16 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

W

"The Rev'd" would steer me towards Anglican as I would have thought Roman Catholic would have been "Father" [there I go showing my ignorance again I am sure - in civilian life & records anyway I presume], but ...

 

"Reverend" and abbreviations is simply a more formal written style. "Father" is more usual in spoken address. "Reverend Father" is actually the full style.

Edited 29 May , 2018 by Wexflyer

[Wexflyer]

15 hours ago, keithfazzani said:

The term Reverend as a form of address is an Americanism which is not used in the UK. I say not used but seems to have crept in. Current correct forms of address for C of E clergy are to be found here. There is no reason to believe they have changed https://www.crockford.org.uk/faq/how-to-address-the-clergy

 

I entirely disagree. Your own reference - the link to Crockford - says:

"Chaplains to the Armed Services

1. The Reverend A B Smith RN (or CF or RAF), and

   Deacons and Priests

2. The Reverend A B Smith"

 

"Reverend" stems from a Latin term, and is no way an Americanism.

Edited 29 May , 2018 by Wexflyer

[Wexflyer]

Boyan is uncommon as a surname- Boylan/Boylen would be my first line of attack- then BOYL*   The latter gives one man with the right initial-but I would not care to guess which brand  of soap suds he played for: 

Captain Joseph BOYLE Army Chaplain's Department

 

 

I agree this is most likely just a typo. and that Boyle is a likely candidate. Further, I would wager that he subscribed to the leading brand....

[keithmroberts]

Joseph Boyle is not described as Reverend, or by any other religious title. I can't see any record of an interview card at the Museum, which might fit with someone who rather than a temporary chaplain was fulfilling that role in a regular capacity, at say, the barracks in the Leominster/Hereford area, nor does a quick search show any service medals although I did not exhaust all possibilities. That would certainly not preclude perhaps an older man with a permanent post based in the UK who did not serve in a theatre of war. He is not listed as an Anglican clergyman in the 1923 Crockfords but that does not preclude other denominations or death between 1918 and the compilation of the 1923 edition.  What is more interesting in that regard is that his file bears no religious title which I would have thought  unusual.  If anyone is popping into Kew his file might bear examination, but  he remains no more than a possibility.

 

 

[alf mcm]

  Also from an Army List for 1918;-

Temporary Chaplain 4th Class J.Boyle, Roman Catholic, commissioned 26/01/1917.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[keithfazzani]

7 hours ago, Wexflyer said:

 

I entirely disagree. Your own reference - the link to Crockford - says:

"Chaplains to the Armed Services

1. The Reverend A B Smith RN (or CF or RAF), and

   Deacons and Priests

2. The Reverend A B Smith"

 

"Reverend" stems from a Latin term, and is no way an Americanism.

In written form I agree it is in spoken form as "Good morning reverend Jones" that it is wrong. see here under deacons and priests https://www.crockford.org.uk/faq/how-to-address-the-clergy

[daggers]

What about “BRYAN”

D

[Guest]

  As there is a little bit of debate about the correct designations of British Army chaplains, then let me add a little diversion and a little extra. Probably the most poignant photograph ever taken of an Army Chaplain. Often reproduced but not often correctly identified.  This is the Reverend Leslie  Hardman, a Chaplain to the Forces in the Second World War. He was an Orthodox Jewish rabbi from Leeds- denied for a long time the formal designation of Rabbi because of internal politics  in his faith. There was an older tradition that a rabbi could be called "Reverend" and I believe this is what  he was called while a Chaplain to the Forces.

   The photograph is of him conducting a Jewish funeral rite at Bergen- Belsen in 1945. And a reminder that the work of a Chaplain to the Forces was no soft  billet.

 

 

[inkerman]

during my service the verbal form of address was 'Padre' as in  'if you want to marry her, go and see the Padre'  and on a training programme 'Padre's Hour'.  I am away from my books but I recall an episode in Manning's 'Her Private's We' where Bourne gets a cheque cashed by the padre.  Quite aware that I am working from memory and that I couldbe mistaken.  the Padre's written title was thus: Captain A B Smith CF.

 

Richard