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Remembered Today:

The Liddle Collection - 'interesting' story/scandal?


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On 21/03/2017 at 02:10, Moonraker said:

The linked article doesn't give Peter Liddle's viewpoint. A Google suggests other articles on this topic, but I don't have time today to search through them to see if he's made any statement. However
 

this Wikipedia entry

[Readers should note that the text referring to alleged unethical conduct was only added on 21 March 2017. GWF Admin Team]

 

suggests there have been other instances.

 

Moonraker

 

Why would a historian need to hang onto an original once he had "read it"?  The only explanation I can think of would be to prevent other researchers from reading it.

 

Regardless of that rather unsavory scenario, when a veteran asks you to return his diary, and you already have a copy, what possible reason could there be for not doing so?


Ah, reading the linked article we see this comment attributed to Mr. Liddle:

 

Quote

In 1982, Liddle agreed to an approach from the Australian Joint Copying Project for the collection to be microfilmed. But the Defence report notes that the following year he changed his mind, saying "my archives would be severely undermined in value by my co-operation with your project".

According to the report, Liddle regarded the collection as "his personal property and that it has a commercial 'value' that he intends to realise".

 

How very nice.  What sort of price did it "realize" in the end?

Edited by 2ndCMR
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13 minutes ago, 2ndCMR said:

Why would a historian need to hang onto an original once he had "read it"? 

 

Writing in the most general terms and not suggesting any motives that Peter Liddle may have had, I suspect there are some people who enjoy collecting and possessing originals.

 

In my case I could have saved a great deal of money by copying and storing images available on the Web rather than buying original postcards, photographs  and other documents. I do have seven or eight copies in my collection, but the originals are either unique or so rare that I shall never own them.

 

Moonraker

 

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an emotive subject.... there is a set of "documents" available on the net {I shall never give any further details} that were purchased by an institution from a source to which they had been mainly donated , a well known dealer with whom I was discussing these divulged this information I shall most certainly not recommend any of my collection is "donated" upon my demise! 

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39 minutes ago, barkalotloudly said:

an emotive subject.... there is a set of "documents" available on the net {I shall never give any further details} that were purchased by an institution from a source to which they had been mainly donated , a well known dealer with whom I was discussing these divulged this information I shall most certainly not recommend any of my collection is "donated" upon my demise! 

 

 Woof- it continues-  I put up a thread a couple of days back on some papers of Captain Guy Nightingale, Royal Munster Fusiliers. He wrote vivid and oft-quoted descriptions of the landings at Gallipoli. Some of his papers were desposited at the National Archives- but appear to have been withdrawn by their current owner and for sale at auction on 7th June. "Deposited" is a polite term that means ownership stays with the depositor-often foirgotten as "deposit" can go across generations. Withdrawal is a problem.

   I suspect that some of Dr.Liddle's troubles may have arisen because of varying uses of the word "deposited"

Still looking out for some announcement from University of Leeds.  I do not think the matter could be closed for just the 3 ANZAC diaries- There has tp be provision for the provenance of all other diaries or it is an open door for continuing aggravation. 

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Captain and Brevet Major Nightingale.

 

1.JPG

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12 minutes ago, museumtom said:

Captain and Brevet Major Nightingale.

 

1.JPG

 

      Thanks for that Tom-   Did you pick up on the details of 2Lt  James Millar, Royal Irish Regiment, that I put up from his officer file at Wexflyer's request?  A tragic story of a Wexford man.

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No bother, I did not get the info on 2lt Millar, can you send me a link please?

OK I got it, brilliant detail, thank you very much indeed.

 Kind regards.

 Tom.

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Surely a Research  Archive should be interested in the information given by a document. So it needs to be sure it has a high quality,true copy.  It can then ensure this is safeguarded for posterity and make this available to Researchers now and in the future.

 

The Original document will have a Financial  and historic interest value to a Collector and an emotional (and historic) interest value to the Family. Since there are going to be a number of people in the family and a number of collectors it is evident that most parties will have to be satisfied with a copy.

 

The quality of digital copying these days is so good that such a copy, either remaining in digital form or printed out, will satisfy most needs.

 

I cannot see the problem in letting original documents go into the collecting world, once properly copied,  if that releases funds for the Archives to aquire and preserve yet more documents. The very fact that there is financial value attached means the document is more likely to be preserved.

 

I can see a problem when collectors or family are not prepared to share the information such documents contain. The psychology behind being the only person to have such and such a document is beyond me but I recognise the need exists!. Most collectors are pretty good on sharing.

 

Liddle must be a good illustration of someone, at the time when there was not great interest,  taking the trouble to track down and preserve original documents that in many cases would otherwise have disappeared.. But now that the technology has moved on, a rethink on the treatment of that archive is required.

 

The IWM disposal programme comes to mind where (as discussed on this forum) the disposal policy seems unprofessional.

 

Charlie

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1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

The IWM disposal programme comes to mind where (as discussed on this forum) the disposal policy seems unprofessional.

 

Charlie

 

   IWM disposals are of printed books. In fairness to IWM (a phrase not uttered by me very often)- IWM did have a lot of gunk that had been given to it in early years, so it has culled down the irrelevant and the duplicates. How they did it is another mroal issue,which has caused some adverse comment.  IWM manuscripts appear untouched,as they are considered to be "Museum" items and safeguarded by IWM's charter to retain.

    Like you. I see no reason other than the (male) hunter/gatherer instinct to build up collections-My experience as a bookseller is that 90% of collector's are male-perhaps due to the primeval hunter-gatherer genes still lurking inside us. As regards Liddle, I might hope that this might be a spur to Leeds getting the lot digitised. OK, there are copyright problems with those few items that have currently been in dispute-but I think Leeds might be encouraged to seek funding to get the lot online. Thereafter, squabbles about ownership are largely resolved-OK,some residual copyright issues- but generally materials that have been "outed" on the Internet are,effectively, hard to dis-out (neologism there!) simply because copying is so easy

    I look forward to an announcement-no doubt in suitable diplomatic terms- that the 3 Kiwi diaries are being returned. to NZ-though, interestingly, not to the families-though the solution must mean there has been some agreement with them-or else deposit in Turnbull is just as bad as deposit with Liddle. Let's be blunt- more problems like this are likely to come along for Liddle-unless there is cast-iron paperwork for "ownership"-which I doubt.It is just a matter of time before other families start squawking for reclamation. The experience of the medal collectors on GWF shows this is a recurrent problem. A.N.Other in a family gives away/sells  a group of medals-all done and dusted. Then another family member-perhaps more distant, perhaps from a newer generation starts creating about "ownership". Our colleagues who are medal collectors seem a pretty fair-minded lot and have mostly been gracious on the matter-in returning items at cost or even at a loss. It seems to me that this problem will also start popping up with other items in the Liddle archive. It is an impossible situation-but digitising the lot might be an answer to keep the materials perpetually available,whatever happens to the originals. On the other hand, Liddle may just become very restrictive indeed-no form of copying,etc. I have a fair idea as to which way the University of Leeds will jump on this. I am not expecting good news.

    As regards future digitisation- I would hope that both IWM and Liddle would have the grace- it might also be sense- to have coherent schemes for digitisation for loan and subsequent use- of borrowed/lent materials. Given the quality of digitisation, this seems a way forward to accomodate both the wishes of families to retain originals,while making the material better known. I suspect that the University of Leeds is stuck-legally- between a rock and a hard place as we do not know what Dr' Liddle's views are  and directions are on this matter. But it seems to Your Humble that digitisation is a way forward to expand collections over the years. It cannot be long before a journalist or two someone overehere starts stirring things as regards all the British diaries and how they were acquired. Whether there is any absolute right or any absolute wrong in what Dr. Liddle was up to when he collected, it seems likely that the same sort of issues as with the Kiwi diaries wil recur again,again anad again unless there is a definitive settlement of status of all the items in Liddle. Now seems the optimum time to do it.

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