RSM W.G.Flint - Received Divisional Notice of Gallantry

[davidbohl]

Can we expand the meaning of this page please, its origin is from the database of Dennis Reeve from the Liverpool Scottish Museum trust Archive.

It says "was recommended and received a Divisional Notice of Gallantry".

Was this a medal or purely an acknowledgement ?

 

William George FLINT b. 1874 Liverpool d. 1943, he played with a superb handlebar moustache http://home.btconnect.com/seftonrufc/s186.jpg

 

Many thanks

Dave

Edited 30 May , 2018 by davidbohl
credit to Denis Reeve for the document

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, davidbohl said:

Can we expand the meaning of this document off FMP please, it says "was recommended and received a Divisional Notice of Gallantry".

Was this a medal or purely an acknowledgement ?

Spectacular photo of him on FMP in King's Scottish Regt.

 

William George FLINT b. 1874 Liverpool d. 1943, he played with a superb handelbar moustache http://home.btconnect.com/seftonrufc/s186.jpg

 

Many thanks

Dave

Usually these seem to have taken the format of some sort of printed card or certificate awarded by the Division itself.

Craig

Edited 23 May , 2018 by ss002d6252

[Mark1959]

Craig I believe is correct.

He was not in a Scottish Regiment.

He was in the KLR.

1900-08 - KLR 8th (Scottish) VB Battalion

1908 onwards KLR 10th (Scottish) Battalion

Scraps of docs here

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM/WO363-4/007307103/00667&parentid=GBM/WO363-4/7307103/31/667

Edited 23 May , 2018 by Mark1959

[Ken Lees]

Here is an example.

 

The card usually meant that the man had been recommended for an award. This is the Divisional Commander's notification of the fact that it had been brought to his attention. If the Div. Commander forwarded it to the Corps Commander then it could have resulted in the award of the Military Medal (as in this case), or another award.

[davidbohl]

That's brilliant Ken, I've just been to the museum again and snapped the Devereux details, it recounts the operation on the day.

I love the ciggie in his mouth

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 May , 2018 by davidbohl
copyright infringed

[inkerman]

Sometimes called 'the soup ticket'  Soldiers humour.

 

Richard

[davidbohl]

The Major-General's name of the 3rd Division, it looks like A.Haldape ?, can't find any references to him.

Dave

 

[clk]

Hi Dave,

 

Aylmer Haldane? Wiki link

 

Regards

Chris

[Ian Riley]

I am sorry if this sounds rather negative but the page of the database published above is the personal property and copyright (in that form) of my colleague, Dennis Reeves, of the Liverpool Scottish Museum Trust Archive. It is taken directly from the regimental database, not accessible through the internet. I know only to well that Dennis will not have uploaded this in any form to the net. Whilst much material may now be available on the internet, I suspect that some the material at least will be the result of Dennis's personal research and/or from unpublished material in our archive. I understand it has been downloaded from 'Find My Past'. I have just spoken to Dennis and we are not sure how this page comes to be on the internet in this form but I suspect that we may have provided a copy to a relative (with caveat) who made a personal visit to us about 10 years ago. 

 

I appreciate the good intentions of the original poster on this forum and that he would not have known the provenance through 'Find My Past' but would be grateful if the original post could be amended to include an acknowledgement.  

 

It is incidentally an excellent photo of Flint at the centre of the Aliens RFC, an interestingly multi-ethnic team by the look of it. I was looking for the 'Officer in Spurs' photo referred to but, following the link, came across a large page of 'PinInterest' photos. This raises another interesting issue with their caveat that 'This photo may be subject to copyright restrictions'. Some of them certainly are and have been published previously with a copyright restriction. Pininterest seems to Hoover ™ up everything which is OK with postcards etc but not with otherwise unpublished photos from private albums

 

Ian

 

 

Edited 28 May , 2018 by Ian Riley
Clarity

[Guest]

Ian- I am a little confused on this:

 

 1)     I know only to well that Dennis will not have uploaded this in any form to the net

  2)   I understand it has been downloaded from 'Find My Past'.

 

This seems irreconcilable. Yes, acknowledgements should be made and "copyright" respected. As our good friend "Guest" late of this parish  did so much good work on the matter..  Who actually owns the physical card?   Are we talking about "copyright" by virtue of owning the card or "copyright" by virtue of  of owning the digital image?

   I mean no argument with you or Ken Lees- both distinguished and good-hearted contributors to GWF. But is this an old battle re. "re-copyrighting" by virtue of digital image or just an unintended discourtesy-if the latter then easily remedied.

   Fully appreciate that Liverpool Scottish Archive is a piece of restricted property- but would this have been clear to all who contributed to it? It is an impossible argument- unrestricted  freebooting versus "closed" history. Hence, the finesse in such concepts as "fair use" on this forum  

 

 

[Ian Riley]

'This seems irreconcilable' : I am sure it has found its way onto the internet in good faith. The last query we had on Flint was about ten years ago. I am assuming that Dennis must have given a hard copy to someone, perhaps not making clear that he would not want it posted in that form. That's an internal issue we need to look at. 

 

davidbohl (OP) does not appear to have contacted us directly.

 

I think my point is that this is an actual image of Dennis's own work. If someone had rehashed it into another form after we had provided the information I could (would have to!)  cope (but an acknowledgement such 'Dennis Reeves at the Liverpool Scottish  has told me ...' or looking at Adjutant's personal diaries in possession of the Liverpool Scottish archive ...'  Clearly, if it has arrived anonymously from 'Find My Past' then davidbohl, the original poster, cannot be expected to be blessed with second sight! (I presume FMP stuff is generally copyright free) . I am just asking that we have an acknowledgement inserted since I have pointed out the origin. 

 

Clearly a minefield. 

 

Ian

 

PS I thought that the Museum of Liverpool prohibited photography of the KLR database that they hold (not their property but in gallery as a result of the generosity of others)  

 

Edited 28 May , 2018 by Ian Riley

[keithmroberts]

I can see that  David Bohl has amended his original post to credit the Liverpool Scottish database although he found the image via FMP.  Given that he is seeking further information about the content of the image perhaps we can move on to that. I am grateful that Ian Riley has posted respectfully, and hope that maybe some answers to the original query might emerge. Copyright can be a nightmare as we all know and we try to keep posts here within reasonable bounds.

 

 

Keith Roberts

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Ian Riley said:

'This seems irreconcilable' : I am sure it has found its way onto the internet in good faith. The last query we had on Flint was about ten years ago. I am assuming that Dennis must have given a hard copy to someone, perhaps not making clear that he would not want it posted in that form. That's an internal issue we need to look at. 

 

davidbohl (OP) does not appear to have contacted us directly.

 

I think my point is that this is an actual image of Dennis's own work. If someone had rehashed it into another form after we had provided the information I could (would have to!)  cope (but an acknowledgement such 'Dennis Reeves at the Liverpool Scottish  has told me ...' or looking at Adjutant's personal diaries in possession of the Liverpool Scottish archive ...'  Clearly, if it has arrived anonymously from 'Find My Past' then davidbohl, the original poster, cannot be expected to be blessed with second sight! (I presume FMP stuff is generally copyright free) . I am just asking that we have an acknowledgement inserted since I have pointed out the origin. 

 

Clearly a minefield. 

 

Ian

 

PS I thought that the Museum of Liverpool prohibited photography of the KLR database that they hold (not their property but in gallery as a result of the generosity of others)  

 

 

   Thank you Ian- No imputation of impropriety on your part intended.  Copyright when we are all pushing the same handcart (greater knowledge of the Great War)  is a poisoned chalice (Yes-mixed metaphors-it's a bank holiday) . Copyright courtesies for ownership of the original and thanks for the digitiser I can live with-  trying to stretch copyright over original materials by virtue of taking a pic. I cannot. Good to see that good old fashioned crossed wires were at work (yep-another mixed metaphor).  

    The only problem I have now is that if folk-both gatherers of images and providers of materials- did so to build a better arhcive, then I would be a bit grumpy if that information was unreasonably restricted by a custodian institution. But this is an old story  vis a vis IWM. I hope the KLR archive prospers and get a thumping from multiples of users. A closed archive is dead knowledge.

[davidbohl]

I feel a bit perturbed about the consequences of a asking for help on GWF now.

As the custodian of the rich history of the Aliens/Sefton Rugby Club I copyrighted our material in 2004, published a book and spent 25 years digitizing it, transcribing it, and creating a website for the greater knowledge and the social history surrounding Schoolteachers and the game rugby either side of the both wars in Liverpool.

I come from a different school of thought regarding copyright now after lining the pockets of the legal profession in an attempt to protect it (to no avail).

As long as it is not used blatantly for commercial use I'm quite happy for it to be floated about FMP/Ancestry etc. If it fills in somebodies family tree or they cut and paste a bit of a photograph I'm more than happy, all of the comments and feedback I get back gives me great pleasure and my website attracts the attention of willing readers from all over the globe.

Yours in rugby

Dave

 

[keithmroberts]

Dave

 

That sounds good to me. As a director/trustee of the GWF I have to be careful. As posted in many other debates, we depend on our members' donations and a single legal case, well founded or just malicious would probably be the end of this forum. As a result we mostly err on the side of caution, but you have done nothing wrong. We do ask members to quote sources, and there is a section in the rules of the GWF, but we tread as lightly as we can.  Single quotes/images are not something that the world should go to war over. I hope you find some more information about this chap.

 

 

Keith

[Guest]

This is not to re-fight old battles- the only winners in all of this seem to be M'learned Friend and I feel sure most of us do a bit of History work without that being the intention. My view is that we gain from the sensible use of the work of others- and that ALL of us gain if there is a greater stock of knowledge available for ALL.  In my erstwhile day job as bookseller I saw from time to time the libraries and papers of deceased researchers- nothing worse than a lifetime of research shared with nobody. Of course, each to their own , but GWF and,say,Fromelles Project would be a lot harder without the ease of obtaining large amounts of information - and ease brings casualness of the courtesies. 

    Sefton is lucky to have such a good history of it's players in the Great War- I have 2 casualties who played for a local strong club- and there is not much on any of it's players save a single printed slip stuck in a match programme in 1919.  Cricketers seem to have had a good write up, some rugby and football as well. Athletics is the one that gives me grief- one of my casualties was an international class athlete (sprinter), DOW after the war- a bullet through the lung at Gallipoli. There was some stuff about athletics in Stand To years ago but it is difficult to crack

   One small point re  RSM Flint- the Div Commander's  commendation should lead to a war diary for the event being commended-My eyesight is too poor for reading the reduced entry above. My understanding is that a commendation was a "proxima accessit" INSTEAD of a formal gallantry award, rather than a prelude to one.

Edited 28 May , 2018 by Guest

[davidbohl]

I agree with your view GUEST and I/We are very lucky to have such a good history of our players in the Great War, so much so, most of the original documents are now held with the Liverpool Archives in Central Library. Such priceless social history needs to be passed on and available to all accredited readers in years to come.

We must be better hoarders up here as I was given a huge box of belongings of our great Alien from Hong Kong, Dr Jaffir Rumjah and his sons. After filtering all the stuff I had different piles to donate to the likes of West Derby Hockey Club, Liverpool table tennis club, Knowsley Archives with Huyton Cricket Club (defunct), Clubmoor Cricket and Hockey Club, Liverpool Institute, Hospitals, and decades of history of the pedigree of Bedlington terriers (went to the society in Leeds). It certainly inspired a new generation of historians.

With having all our history on the web now I have to accept that once the copyrighted material has crossed the UK borders, there is not much I can do but use my software that tracks what page has been accessed and where it has gone whether it be Lagos, Norwich or Cheltenham.

I like the term 'proxime accessit'

Dave