kirlaw72 Posted 21 May , 2018 Share Posted 21 May , 2018 Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can help. I'm working on a research project on linguistics and I'm working with letters written by Scottish soldiers from the trenches of the western front. One of the soldiers who wrote the letters is a Private George Murray from Fortrose, Ross and Comarty. His letters state that he was in the 4th Seaforths, and he also writes of being a trainee engineer at Fairfields shipyard in Govan. He also wrote of being a member of the territorial force and I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of where I could find his records or anything that would give me a bit of information about his army time. I've really not had a lot of luck. I wonder whether he volunteered as a member of the territorial force or whether his unit volunteered. Any help or info would be much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 21 May , 2018 Share Posted 21 May , 2018 10 minutes ago, kirlaw72 said: Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can help. I'm working on a research project on linguistics and I'm working with letters written by Scottish soldiers from the trenches of the western front. One of the soldiers who wrote the letters is a Private George Murray from Fortrose, Ross and Comarty. His letters state that he was in the 4th Seaforths, and he also writes of being a trainee engineer at Fairfields shipyard in Govan. He also wrote of being a member of the territorial force and I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of where I could find his records or anything that would give me a bit of information about his army time. I've really not had a lot of luck. I wonder whether he volunteered as a member of the territorial force or whether his unit volunteered. Any help or info would be much appreciated. All territorials were volunteers - up to 1916 they had a choice whether or not they would serve overseas, after that the choice was removed. Is there any service number given ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 21 May , 2018 Share Posted 21 May , 2018 I've had a look through Ancestry's medal rolls, and there's at least one possible candidate who was definitely in the 4th Bn (there are others whose battalion is not recorded, mind): Pte G. Murray, regimental number 1927, landed in France on 7th November 1914, transferred to the 6th Battalion in December 1916. After the 1917 renumbering of the Territorial Force his number was 267649 if I'm reading the medal rolls entry correctly. As Craig says, your man's number is the key to finding any records there might be (many service records were destroyed in the London Blitz). For general research tips, the Long Long Trail (top left of screen) is very helpful. Cheers, Pat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirlaw72 Posted 21 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2018 Thanks for your answer. I had managed to find that he was in the 1/4 (Ross Highland) Battalion and was in C Company. On the Fortrose and Rosemarkie history group webpage, his service number was given as 1927. The other details provided on the entry for George Murray on that page correspond to my writer (occupation and address). Unfortunately, I am in Italy and getting over to the archives isn't doable at this moment in time. I know he was seriously injured at the end of November 1916 and due to his 'bad blood' from over 2 years in the trenches his wound wasn't healing and he had his leg amputated. I know he was at the Military Hospital in Leicester and also at the Military Hospital in Bellahouston Park, Glasgow. I know he survived his wounds, returned home and died in 1935. But I haven't been able to find anything about his service or pension. 3 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said: I've had a look through Ancestry's medal rolls, and there's at least one possible candidate who was definitely in the 4th Bn (there are others whose battalion is not recorded, mind): Pte G. Murray, regimental number 1927, landed in France on 7th November 1914, transferred to the 6th Battalion in December 1916. After the 1917 renumbering of the Territorial Force his number was 267649 if I'm reading the medal rolls entry correctly. As Craig says, your man's number is the key to finding any records there might be (many service records were destroyed in the London Blitz). For general research tips, the Long Long Trail (top left of screen) is very helpful. Cheers, Pat. You found him! 1927 is the regimental number that appears alongside his name on the Fortrose and Rosemarkie history group. Thanks so much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 21 May , 2018 Share Posted 21 May , 2018 Just a lucky shot! However, the information about transferring to the 6th Battalion appears to be inaccurate - checking using the later number produces a WALTER Murray, whose original number was 1432... My mistake, I should think; either way, ignore that bit. The 4th Battalion were amongst the first of the Territorials to go into action, the LLT here shows where they served (all on the Western Front as far as I'm aware) which will allow you to follow their movements more closely: 1/4th (Ross Highland) Battalion August 1914 : at Dingwall. Part of Seaforth & Cameron Brigade in the Highland Division. 7 November 1914 : left the Division and landed at Le Havre, and on the 12 December 1914 joined the Dehra Dun Brigade in 7th (Meerut) Division on the Western Front. 6 November 1915 : transferred to 137th Brigade in 46th (North Midland) Division. 13 November 1915 : transferred to 46th Brigade in 15th (Scottish) Division. 7 January 1916 : transferred to 154th Brigade in 51st (Highland) Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 21 May , 2018 Share Posted 21 May , 2018 He attested between 11 and 26 Aug 1914 #1923 attested 11 Aug 1914 #1956 attested 26 Aug 1914 Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 21 May , 2018 Share Posted 21 May , 2018 The rather splendid Ross-shire Roll of Honour, (£10 from the Highlanders Museum for a reprint of the 1916 original) has him in C Comonay (which came from the Black isle) and he is listed as "Engineer, Castle Street, Fortrose". This is from a list produced immediately before the battalion proceeded to France, so he probably (a few were left behind) sent over with the battalion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 21 May , 2018 Share Posted 21 May , 2018 Murray's medal rolls records back Steven's assumption up here, giving his entry into theatre (1- France & Flanders) as 7th November 1914, which coincides with the original disembarkation of the battalion. 51st (Highland) Division sustained heavy casualties in the fighting at Beaumont Hamel in November 1916, and the 4th Seaforths' War Diary might contain some insight (or not, they vary in content and detail and ORs are generally rarely named) - it should be available on Ancestry, I think. There's a 2006 doctoral thesis on the 51st Division by Craig French here which might have useful background information too, if you haven't already seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirlaw72 Posted 22 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2018 21 hours ago, ss002d6252 said: 11 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said: The rather splendid Ross-shire Roll of Honour, (£10 from the Highlanders Museum for a reprint of the 1916 original) has him in C Comonay (which came from the Black isle) and he is listed as "Engineer, Castle Street, Fortrose". This is from a list produced immediately before the battalion proceeded to France, so he probably (a few were left behind) sent over with the battalion. He attested between 11 and 26 Aug 1914 #1923 attested 11 Aug 1914 #1956 attested 26 Aug 1914 Craig Thanks very much for that, Craig. Great to have that information. Thanks also for the Ross-shire Roll of Honour, Steven. I was lucky enough to spend two days in their archives. K 11 hours ago, Pat Atkins said: Murray's medal rolls records back Steven's assumption up here, giving his entry into theatre (1- France & Flanders) as 7th November 1914, which coincides with the original disembarkation of the battalion. 51st (Highland) Division sustained heavy casualties in the fighting at Beaumont Hamel in November 1916, and the 4th Seaforths' War Diary might contain some insight (or not, they vary in content and detail and ORs are generally rarely named) - it should be available on Ancestry, I think. There's a 2006 doctoral thesis on the 51st Division by Craig French here which might have useful background information too, if you haven't already seen it. Many thanks for this, Pat. I hadn't seen the thesis on the 51st Division - I'm sure it'll be very helpful in background to the events George writes about. I'll have a look at the war diaries this morning. K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 22 May , 2018 Share Posted 22 May , 2018 The Battalion History (a quite superb book, frankly) is not of any specific help (but it's a book every home should have). French's thesis has been published by Helion (review from the Long, Long Trail HERE). If I was honest, as Chris Baker says, the book has the hallmarks of an academic work - there seems to be a tendency to cut and paste PhD theses as books, rather than work them into something more book-like (if you see what I mean). The Index isn't great and some of French's analysis about (for example) recruiting while the Highland Division was in Bedford was a little sketchy. It is a good book, though, and if one has an interest in the Division it is well worth having. For an insight into what a Territorial Highland battalion 'felt' like, THIS is a bloody good book. Not Seaforths (but close), but the general feel and ethos of the 5th Seaforth probably wasn't a million miles away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirlaw72 Posted 28 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2018 On 21/05/2018 at 11:49, ss002d6252 said: He attested between 11 and 26 Aug 1914 #1923 attested 11 Aug 1914 #1956 attested 26 Aug 1914 Craig Hi Craig, I don't mean to be totally dim but I've been unable to find these other attestations. Could you possibly let me know where you found them? Many thanks K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 28 May , 2018 Share Posted 28 May , 2018 #1923 - https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM/WO363-4/007303335/00454&parentid=GBM/WO363-4/7303335/22/454 #1956 - https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM/WO363-4/007379669/00444&parentid=GBM/WO363-4/7379669/18/444 Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirlaw72 Posted 28 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2018 24 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: #1923 - https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM/WO363-4/007303335/00454&parentid=GBM/WO363-4/7303335/22/454 #1956 - https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM/WO363-4/007379669/00444&parentid=GBM/WO363-4/7379669/18/444 Craig Thank you very much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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