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Phil K

Tracing a soldiers service number - Edward Wright

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Phil K

I am hoping that someone can help me.  I am trying to trace service information about my maternal grandfather Edward Wright. He was born on 26th Sept 1878 and lived Wincobank, Sheffield.  His wife was called Elizabeth Sarah Carter and his father Joseph Wright. I have attached a photograph of him in his uniform and also a copy of my mothers birth certificate saying she was born in Kilkenny Barracks where he was Quartermaster Sergeant of the 11th Battery.  I have attached a copy of this as well. I cannot find any details of where he served other than obviously in Ireland and I have no service number or Army details.  On his marriage certificate it gives his address as North Ripon Camp in 1917 - also attached.  If you could assist in any way or point me in the right direction I would really appreciate your help.  I cannot find him him on the Forces War Records site and ancestry.co.uk don't have his military details and I cannot apply for his military records from the national archives without his service number. Kindest regard Phil K

Cynthia's baptism.jpg

Cynthia's birth cert.jpg

Edward Wright with Elaine.jpg

Edward Wright.JPG

Edward Wright Marriage certificate.pdf

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wandererpaul

What is the rank?

 

Battery Quarter Master Sergeant?

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MaxD

Yes, the application doesn't require it though.

 

Max

 

 

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clk

Hi Phil,

 

Welcome to the forum'

 

Hopefully, a forum pal will be able to say if one of the medal ribbons he's wearing (left hand side as looking)  in the first photo is for a Star award. If it is he should be one of these men.

image.png.8d950fd934aacf503de0e54f35d20ff8.png

image.png.61e4a61000ed31708aa756e4280f2d31.png

 

43483 was called Edwin

11315 was called Ernest

11847 was called Edward, but he seems to have DoWs in 1914

637 was called Ernest

1194 was called Edgar, and

1534 was called Edgar.

 

That would seem to leave 15844. His medal rolls (Ancestry here) show that he was called Edward, going overseas on 19.04.1914 as a Sergeant with 42 Brigade RFA, rising to a Battery Quarter Master Sergeant at the end of the conflict.

 

I didn't see a matching birth date in the index of files the MoD published for records in their holding, for men born before 1901.

image.png.afe3aea25978893e436c671481df5e03.png

image.png.95d667ee0a0f64316da391805acc4286.png

image.png.9e2c0d8ef644c79cfbcc4670b878b742.png

 

Regards

Chris

 

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wandererpaul

I checked the MOD roll too and he wasn’t listed. That’s why I asked, is he holding the rank of BQMS in that picture where he has his ribbons on show? If so, it could be soldier 15844.

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wandererpaul

Edward Wright

Year 1914-20

Service number 15844

Second service number 15844

RankSergeant, Warrant Officer Class 2

Second rank Warrant Officer Class 2

Regiment Royal Field Artillery, Labour Corps

Second corps Labour Corps

Service record Soldier Number: 15844, Rank: Sergeant, Corps: Royal Field Artillery

Second service record Soldier Number: 15844, Rank: Warrant Officer Class 2, Corps: Labour Corps

 

thats from FMP, but his medal roll for the BWM and VM shows an amendment of rank to BQMS.

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MaxD

He is certainly wearing the rank badges worn by a BQMS and he has the full set of three. 

 

(I had deleted a PS suggesting 15844 mainly because there is no service record surviving only the medal records.)

 

Max

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Is his place and date of birth confirmed on his birth certificate?

I don't see an Edward Wright birth for September (or December) qtr. of 1878 in Sheffield.

These are all the West Riding Edward Wright births for 1877, 78 &79

Births Dec 1877   (>99%)
WRIGHT  Edward    Bradford, Y  9b 146  btnInfo.gif 
WRIGHT  Edward    Barnsley  9c 163  btnInfo.gif 

Births Jun 1878   (>99%)
WRIGHT  Edward    Barnsley  9c 256  btnInfo.gif Scan available - click to view
WRIGHT  Edward Ernest    Rotherham  9c 678  btnInfo.gif Scan available - click to view

Births Sep 1878   (>99%)
WRIGHT  Edward    York  9d 63  btnInfo.gif Scan available - click to view

Births Dec 1878   (>99%)
Wright  Edward    Bradford, Y.  9b 126  btnInfo.gif Scan available - click to view
Wright  Edward    Wortley  9c 281  btnInfo.gif Scan available - click to view

Births Mar 1879   (>99%)
Wright  Edward    Bradford, Y.  9b 53  btnInfo.gif Scan available - click to view
Wright  Edward    Sheffield  9c 569  btnInfo.gif Scan available - click to view

Births Jun 1879   (>99%)
Wright  Edward    Pontefract  9c 140  btnInfo.gif Scan available - click to view
Wright  Edward    Leeds  9b 452  btnInfo.gif Scan available - click to view

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Pat Atkins
Posted (edited)

Yes, looks like the ribbons of a trio, which would point towards BQSM 15844 Edward Wright. The Labour Corps bit raises a question - his mic seems to record a 30/06/1915 transfer, but from what I can make of it all 3 medals were for RFA? I'm sure someone on here can elucidate (may not be at all unusual, though keeping the same number when switching corps is a new one on me). 

 

Pat

Edited by Pat Atkins

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clk

Hi,

 

In the second photo is that a (partial) single stripe on his right sleeve, or just a blemish on the photo? There doesn't appear to be anything on his left sleeve to correspond. I was thinking that it might be a wedding photo, but if he married in 1917 and 15844 went overseas in 1914 as a sergeant...hmm?

 

Wright.jpg.ca719091471fde679b901bffeae82f4a.jpgimage.png.9a2aeb5ead2c03624b23dfb960dba1ed.png

 

Presuming that he was a pre war regular, in the 1911 census he might be the single 31 year old, born Sheffield, in barracks in Aldershot, serving with 144 Battery RFA.

 

59 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

The Labour Corps bit raises a question - his mic seems to record a 30/06/1915 transfer, but from what I can make of it all 3 medals were for RFA? 

 

That does seem to be a bit strange. I thought that MICs essentially distilled info from the medal rolls. For 15844 Wright the card shows that his 3 medals were issued off RFA rolls, but the rolls themselves make no reference to Labour Corps overseas service.

 

Regards

Chris

 

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Phil K
6 hours ago, wandererpaul said:

What is the rank?

 

Battery Quarter Master Sergeant?

Yes, 11th Battery Quarter Master Sergeant.

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GWF1967
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi,

 

In the second photo is that a (partial) single stripe on his right sleeve, or just a blemish on the photo? There doesn't appear to be anything on his left sleeve to correspond. I was thinking that it might be a wedding photo, but if he married in 1917 and 15844 went overseas in 1914 as a sergeant...hmm?

 

Wright.jpg.ca719091471fde679b901bffeae82f4a.jpgimage.png.9a2aeb5ead2c03624b23dfb960dba1ed.png

 

 

 

I think the "single stripe" is a blemish. 

 He has a small W.O. crown on both sleeves.

 

 

Wright.jpg.ca719091471fde679b901bffeae82f4a (2).jpg

Edited by GWF1967

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Phil K
6 hours ago, wandererpaul said:

What is the rank?

 

Battery Quarter Master Sergeant?

Yes, 11th Battery Quarter Master Sergeant.

 

I have had a look at the photograph of Edward with my grandmother and it is a crease on his upper right sleeve and not a stripe.

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Phil K

I really appreciate all of your help with this. I'm afraid I'm a bit out of my depth with all of this.  It's such a shame that while my mother was alive I didn't think to ask about her father and towards the end of her life she had advanced Alzheimer's so wouldn't have been a great deal of help and both of her sisters died before her and I didn't find any documents about him in my mums home when the house was cleared.

 

I don't know if you noticed on the marriage certificate it states he was at North Camp Ripon in 1917.  I don't know if that throws any light on anything.

 

Phil

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MaxD

Your mentioning the National Archives in the start of the thread suggests that it should perhaps have been explained earlier that some 60% plus of Great War service records were destroyed in a WW2 bombing raid.  Those that do survive are on line at  Ancestry and/or Findmypast.  So even if his service number was known, if his record cannot be found on line it isn't anywhere (unless he served on beyond 1920/21).  The medal records that have been cited hold no personal information to distinguish one Edward Wright from another.

 

The records with MOD that clk shows are for men who served on after 1920/21.  The lists are searchable by number or date of birth.  Neither of those has come up with an answer.  However, clk has queried the date of birth, are you able to re-check that?

 

The wedding photo obviously pre-dates the first one and it looks as if at that time he was holding the rank of Warrant Officer Class 2.  The fact that he is later a BQMS, one rank lower, is no anomaly, promotions to acting rank and subsequent reversion were/are quite normal occurrences.

 

All that said, and forgive me if it goes over old ground, while 15844 is a good candidate, only his service record will prove it by providing personal information that can be checked.

 

The medal card for that name is anomalous as has been pointed out.  The Jun 1915 date can't be transfer to the Labour Corps which wasn't formed until 1917 and in his 1917 wedding photo he is still in the artillery.  Retention of the same number and medals on the RFA roll are certainly weird.  However, while that discussion is of interest it doesn't get anywhere near identifying the service number of your man unfortunately.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Max

 

 

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

I wonder if you could answer the question I asked in Post #9?

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MaxD

 

Mea culpa, it was Dai Bach who queried the dob.

 

Max

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

It's important that we check the primary sources. If we can't find a matching dob- is the dob itself wrong?

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clk

Hi,

 

18 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Is his place and date of birth confirmed on his birth certificate?

 

I guess that Phil will need to confirm, but perhaps his source for the DoB is the 1939 Register. In Sheffield...

 

image.png.a43a9d11cd12fcd8c1c5dd9a4c1869ae.png

 

Regards

Chris

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ss002d6252
Posted (edited)

EDIT: Snap with Chris

 

The 1939 register has an Edward Wright, born 26 Sep 1878, and living in Sheffield as a County Court bailiff. His wife is shown as Elizabeth S Wright , born 7 April 1891. There is a daughter, Elaine Sarah Shaw, born 5 Oct 1919. There are also two redacted entries.

 

The baptism record attached to the man on Ancestry has a baptism on 25 Jan 1880 at Wincobank. Father as Joseph Wright, mother as Sarah Ann Wright.

 

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252

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Phil K

I'm afraid that I got his date of birth from the 1939 Register as I have searched the GRO Index and can't find him!  Illusive man to say the least.

 

On the 1939 register it states his date of birth as your saw above, Elizabeth S Wright was his wife and Elaine Sarah Shaw was my mums sister.  The 2 redacted entries will be my mother Dorothy Cynthia and her sister Kathleen Evelyn Wright.  His wife and daughter dates of birth are correct so I assumed his was too.

 

I am awaiting the pdf of his death certificate from the GRO and 3 birth certificates that I have ordered.

 

I now think that perhaps his mother that we know of was not the surname of the mother we thought it was.

 

It still doesn't detract from his photographs and uniform and military service.

 

Thank you for your patience and help.

 

Phil

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saw119
Posted (edited)

From Sheffield Indexers Parish records:

 

WRIGHT, Edward (of Upper Wincobank, born ~).
     Baptised January 25, 1880, by Jno Julian at St Thomas, Wincobank.
     Parents name(s) are Sarah Ann & Joseph (Fork Maker).
     Note: ~
     Godparents: ~ :Page No 21 :Reg No 167

 

and burial records:

 

WRIGHT, Edward (County Court Bailiff, age 74).
     Died at City General Hospital; Buried on November 24, 1952 in Consecrated ground; 
     Grave Number 9302, Section I of Shiregreen Cemetery, Sheffield.
     Parent or Next of Kin if Available: ~. Remarks: ~.
     Plot Owner: ~ ~ of ~. Page No ~ 

Edited by saw119

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TTracer44
Posted (edited)

Possible parents - Marriage Dec 1873 Sheffield district 9c  864

Joseph Wright to Sarah Ann Littlewood

Den

Edited by TTracer44

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

In the 1881 Census (3rd to 4th April 1881), Edward is living with his parents at 179 Wincobank, Sheffield.

Age given as 2, so his date of birth (if that is correct) should be between  5th April 1878 and 4th April 1879.

I'd go with the baptism record that says January 1880 and I suspect that will tally with the birth certificate.

 

<Goes off on a Tangent Mode>

The 1939 Register is interesting, but dates of birth are notoriously inaccurate.

Sometimes, they're a year out, or a month, or the day is just wrong.

You have to remember that the 1939 Register was probably the first time that most citizens had been asked for their own dates of birth in this country.

Up till then, it was a question of age.

I guess even today, most of us when asked how old we are, have to stop and think, and dare I say it, get it wrong first time?

Attestation forms for Great War soldiers, their Medal Index Cards, the Medal Rolls- None of these have a date of birth.

Neither did driving licences. There were no passports as we would know them, no bank cards etc etc.

 

 

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