PhilB Posted 12 May , 2018 Share Posted 12 May , 2018 Is the TOS a resurrection of the Scottish blue bonnet of medieval times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 12 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2018 4 hours ago, depaor01 said: OK. In the interest of quantifying the extent of reuse of WWI uniforms in the Auxiliary RIC, and the fact these are 1921 vintage so within CWGC timeframe, here we go... If mods decide that it isn't appropriate feel free to move elsewhere. Credit: South Dublin Libraries. Permission to reuse for education and research only. Original site for this image: http://source.southdublinlibraries.ie/handle/10599/9127 Great photos, Dave. These RIC men appear to be wearing Balmoral bonnets. It would be interesting to discover the rationale for this headgear selection. A cousin to the the Balmoral is the Irish caubeen; it is quite similar but does not have the toori on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 12 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2018 3 hours ago, 4thGordons said: Here's a relatively random selection - but with lots of Gordons. The odd South African and Canadian too perhaps. Showing styles, affectations in wear and also covers. And a couple like the first one because I just like them! Fantastic collection of photos, Chris. Lots of Tams showing various styles of wearing the bonnet and some Balmorals also. There are a few Scottish Horse soldiers wearing the Balmorals. I think the men in the Band photo are probably 6th HLI but cannot see th cap badges clear enough to be sure. 20 minutes ago, PhilB said: Is the TOS a resurrection of the Scottish blue bonnet of medieval times? I would say that the Balmoral is the direct descendant of the ancient Blue Bonnet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 12 May , 2018 Share Posted 12 May , 2018 Can we coin the phrase 'ToS porn'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 12 May , 2018 Share Posted 12 May , 2018 15 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said: Can we coin the phrase 'ToS porn'? I was thinking of Tam O'Geddon myself. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 12 May , 2018 Share Posted 12 May , 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, gordon92 said: Great photos, Dave. These RIC men appear to be wearing Balmoral bonnets. It would be interesting to discover the rationale for this headgear selection. A cousin to the the Balmoral is the Irish caubeen; it is quite similar but does not have the toori on top. Thanks for that gordon92. I believe there was no rationale at all for the selection of the Auxiliary RIC kit. It was an emergency force equipped with mixtures of RIC and Khaki WWI kit in varying combinations. Hence the local "Black and Tan" nickname. Dave Edited 12 May , 2018 by depaor01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 12 May , 2018 Share Posted 12 May , 2018 I hesitate to correct one of our more learned pals' efforts, or rather the published Osprey piece he appended in #9, but the Liverpool Scottish were 10th KLR, not 8th as shown. I am sure Ian Riley must be away or asleep or he would have jumped in sooner. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 12 May , 2018 Share Posted 12 May , 2018 1 hour ago, daggers said: I hesitate to correct one of our more learned pals' efforts, or rather the published Osprey piece he appended in #9, but the Liverpool Scottish were 10th KLR, not 8th as shown. I am sure Ian Riley must be away or asleep or he would have jumped in sooner. D daggers - I hang my head in shame for not noticing that myself. Here's some splendid early WW2 photos of Tom McCormack, 5 Troop (Liverpool Scottish), No 2 Commando wearing both versions of his Liverpool Scottish headgear. The glengarry was worn with their Forbes kilts, the Balmoral when in battledress trousers. Out of period, but I'm sure the Mods will indulge me since they show the changes in the cut and style by mid century and echo what's shown in the plate in Post #9. ... and here are Syd Murdoch and Bill Hughes, also 5 Troop (Liverpool Scottish), No 2 Commando from the same period ... All three were billeted with my family in Ayr in 1941-42 from where they left for the St Nazaire Raid. Tom died of wounds in a German hospital a fortnight after the raid, while Syd and Bill spent the rest of the war as POW's. There's more on this here: Operation Chariot 76th Anniversary on Skindles (Pals who've opted out of Skindles may not be able to reach this ... and the whole topic will disappear as it ages anyway) Technically the Liverpool Scottish were QOCH by this time, but I certainly should have spotted the howler in Mike Chappell's caption Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 13 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 13 May , 2018 17 hours ago, MBrockway said: ... and here are Syd Murdoch and Bill Hughes, also 5 Troop (Liverpool Scottish), No 2 Commando from the same period ... Mark....Many thanks for posting the link to the thread on the St Nazaire raid. I had not previously seen it. In your above photo, Syd Murdoch definite wears a Balmoral. The man below him has on a TOS; notice the wider headband and larger diameter crown that is only slightly reduced from the Great War headdress. It is noteworthy that all wear their bonnets cocked to their right, quite in contrast to the vanilla symmetric style prevalent in recent years. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 13 May , 2018 Share Posted 13 May , 2018 My pleasure Mike. 5 Troop (Liverpool Scottish), No 2 Commando also hold the distinction of being the last British Army unit to go into battle in the kilt. There are a few individuals in the kilt later in the war, like Lord Lovat's piper Piper Bill Millin landing on D-Day, and some Canadian units may have been in action in the kilt later than Operation Chariot, but Donald Roy's 5 Troop was the last complete British unit to hold this honour. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 13 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 13 May , 2018 On 5/12/2018 at 12:41, 4thGordons said: South African? Chris.......Missed this photo my first time through along with your tentative identification. Yes, I believe this man is a soldier of the 4th South African Infantry (S. African Scottish). The Springbok badge is visible. This unit was composed of volunteers from the Cape Town Highlanders and Transvaal Scottish. The Transvaal Scottish wore a diced Balmoral, and this man looks like he retained that bonnet while serving with the S. African Brigade in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 13 May , 2018 Share Posted 13 May , 2018 As Wiki says "The Balmoral was sometimes simply described as synonymous with the tam o' shanter", could someone explain the essential difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 13 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 13 May , 2018 44 minutes ago, MBrockway said: My pleasure Mike. 5 Troop (Liverpool Scottish), No 2 Commando also hold the distinction of being the last British Army unit to go into battle in the kilt. There are a few individuals in the kilt later in the war, like Lord Lovat's piper Piper Bill Millin landing on D-Day, and some Canadian units may have been in action in the kilt later than Operation Chariot, but Donald Roy's 5 Troop was the last complete British unit to hold this honour. Mark Mark....You have corrected my misimpression that the last unit to wear the kilt in action was the 1st Camerons at LaBaseee and Dunkirk in May 1940. Yet, over a year and a half later we have the Liverpool Scottish at St. Nazaire in kilts! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 13 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 13 May , 2018 19 minutes ago, PhilB said: As Wiki says "The Balmoral was sometimes simply described as synonymous with the tam o' shanter", could someone explain the essential difference? PhilB.......The most significant difference was the structure and manufacturing process. The Balmoral had a one piece body. The body of the TOS was two pieces, the crown and sidewalls allowing for a more efficient bulk manufacturing process. See post #1 of this thread for more details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudcatsgt Posted 13 November , 2018 Share Posted 13 November , 2018 It was mentioned that Joe Sweeney wrote an article in a French military magazine about the Scottish headwear. He mentioned No 279 (thinking Militaria International), but that doesn't seem to be listed in the contents. Does anyone know the magazine and/or issue number? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 December , 2018 Share Posted 3 December , 2018 Hi everyone. I've joined the forum hoping that you guys might be able to help me identify the beret worn by my great grandmother in the following photos. The pictures were taken in Exeter prison, Devon, England in 1917. Great grandmother Edith May had stolen a pair of shoes and a silk dress in the town of Devonport, nr. Plymouth, Devon, England. She was homeless at the time. She was sentenced to 6 weeks hard labour in Exeter prison. I think it's a military beret, but would appreciate some more expert opinions! Also, would the coat possibly be military issue? The photos come from the Devon County Archives: a large volume of photos of prisoners in Exeter prison from late 19th century to early 20th century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 December , 2018 Share Posted 3 December , 2018 (edited) Her dress is civilian rather than prison uniform, which suggests a police station photo rather than a prison one, as the latter were more usually taken in utilitarian prison clothing with the prison number written on. Perhaps Exeter prison took the photo immediately on arrival from court at that time. The knitted bonnet is typical of the boiled and felted wool type made in the town of Kilmarnock for generations. A similar style of bonnet was made in Wales and called a Monmouth Hat (there were various sizes and styles), but the tuft on top, known as a ‘toorie’, indicates that it is most likely the Scottish type. This is not unusual as women’s bonnets made in Scotland were commonly marketed across Britain and Ireland. Edited 4 December , 2018 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 3 December , 2018 Share Posted 3 December , 2018 (edited) 100% agree with Frogsmile - I see no military uniform elements anywhere in her dress. Stewarton, five miles from Kilmarnock, is still known as Bonnet Toun. Mark Edited 3 December , 2018 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 4 December , 2018 Share Posted 4 December , 2018 Lantokay, interesting pictures - and a serious looking hair pin - best of luck with your research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 4 December , 2018 Share Posted 4 December , 2018 47 minutes ago, Neill Gilhooley said: Lantokay, interesting pictures - and a serious looking hair pin - best of luck with your research. Looks like it goes through her head. Not surprised she looks a bit ... shall we say ... dour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 9 March , 2019 Share Posted 9 March , 2019 (edited) Hello there... @gordon92 thank you for your very informative post. This has been very helpful to me. I’m just doing some research as we are getting a batch of officer’s balmorals made for a company sized representation of 1st Bn KOSB in 3rd Div. Albeit WW2. I have been to the Regimental museum and studied all the period photos I can find including examining an officer’s balmoral from display at the museum (made by Wm Anderson). The balmoral has long ribbons on the back. It is evident from wartime photos of KOSB (various Bns like 4th, 5th and 6th in 1943) that balmorals had ribbons. It seems to have been a standard thing for KOSB. There are also post war photos and post war footage from 1946/47 which show the ribbons on the balmorals. There is also some picture evidence of officer’s without ribbons and just a false bow. I suppose it is possible that that had a balmoral purchased from another tailor which was not to KOSB regulation. This may have been fairly common with CANLOAN officers and replacements etc. Or that in some cases the ribbons were tucked inside the bonnet... Do you have any specific information on the use of ribboned balmorals by KOSB? I do not wish to hijack or clutter your thread with WW2 chatter but it would be very helpful. I have attached some photos of the museum balmoral and also some photos of KOSB officers in the ribboned balmorals. Kind regards, Pete Edited 10 March , 2019 by Guest Correcting some typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 16 May , 2019 Share Posted 16 May , 2019 Did the Tan Balmoral go out of use after the GW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 16 May , 2019 Share Posted 16 May , 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jerry B said: Did the Tan Balmoral go out of use after the GW? If you mean the officers shade (Tan?) of Balmoral, Jerry (rather like there was an officers’ shade of puttees made by Fox’s of Somerset) they were still in use right up until merger in the Royal Regiment of Scotland. Trailing tails had not been used for many decades though. Edited 16 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 17 May , 2019 Share Posted 17 May , 2019 10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: If you mean the officers shade (Tan?) of Balmoral, Jerry (rather like there was an officers’ shade of puttees made by Fox’s of Somerset) they were still in use right up until merger in the Royal Regiment of Scotland. Trailing tails had not been used for many decades though. in particular I was asking about the GW Tan Balmorals, for both OR's & Officers introduced in 1915, as mentioned in the first post of this thread of which an officers example was shown. Interesting that tan officers examples continued until relatively recently and probably answers my question, regarding dating this example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 May , 2019 Share Posted 17 May , 2019 (edited) Yes, the colour of the body of the officers’ pattern Balmoral is unchanged, but the binding is no longer that tan colour. Instead the band is ‘self cloth’ with just a stitched down tape in a bow shape as a last vestige of the old adjusting tape at centre rear. NB. Interestingly the cloth used is identical in shade to the 32oz ‘Crombie cloth’ (a proprietary type of Melton) that used to be made in a now defunct factory in Scotland to make the once famed ‘British Warm’ officers’ overcoat. I’ve often wondered if the cloth used is identical. Edited 17 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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