WWIresearcher Posted 2 May , 2018 Share Posted 2 May , 2018 I have the regimental number of a Royal Engineers soldier and wonder if anyone could identify when/where he would have joined and any other information please. He was likely to have served as Despatch Rider and could have started in North African region between 1916 and 1918. There is a good chance he served with the 52nd Divisional Signals Company. The Regimental Number is: 413901 Any help would be greatly appreciated - thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGong Posted 2 May , 2018 Share Posted 2 May , 2018 The only RE with that No is James Guthrie James Guthrie King's Own Scottish Borderers, 785 Machine Gun Corps, 56325 Machine Gun Corps, 200115 Royal Engineers, 413901 Theatre first served 3 Egypt 4/6/15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWIresearcher Posted 3 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2018 Hello, Thanks - I am looking for the RE details. Does anyone know if the RE 413901 regimental number can be traced to a time and place when it was given? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 3 May , 2018 Share Posted 3 May , 2018 1st Lowland Divisional Field Company, later 409 Field Coy, Territorial Force. There was a number change in March 1917 so his number was issued around this date or later. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWIresearcher Posted 3 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2018 Hello Terry, Thanks very much for your help. I am not familiar with the Field Company specifics so do you know if Despatch Riders would have been included or were they only in the Signals Company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWIresearcher Posted 4 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2018 Hello anyone, Can I safely rule out a Despatch Rider position for someone in a Royal Engineers Field Company? My previous thought was that Despatch Riders belonged only to Royal Engineers Signals services but happy to be corrected. As I understand the rank of Pioneer could apply to many services in the Royal Engineers including Despatch Riders. Any help would be appreciated - thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 4 May , 2018 Share Posted 4 May , 2018 I think there was one motor cycle in a field company as part of the HQ element, so it is a possibility. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWIresearcher Posted 21 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2018 Hello Terry, Sorry to be persistent but are you sure the Royal Engineers Regimental No. 413901 corresponds to the 409th (1st Lowland) Field Company. I ask simply because there was also a 410th (2nd Lowland) Field Company. Since my soldier was in Palestine up to April 1918 where the 410th was also operating I can see a link. For the 409th in France that link is less but not impossible. I wonder if you can verify the source of information for 413901 belonging to the 409th Field Company please. Many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 21 May , 2018 Share Posted 21 May , 2018 (edited) The numbers appeared in Army Council Instruction 2243 of 1916 (December). The number range was 412001 - 414000 for this unit who served throughout the war with 1st Division. 410 Field Company joined the BEF, as part of 52nd Lowland , in 1918, landing at Marseille ex-Egypt between the 12th and 17th of April. TR Edited 21 May , 2018 by Terry_Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 21 May , 2018 Share Posted 21 May , 2018 Terry is right in saying that, at the date the 413xxx number was allocated, this man was held to belong to 1st Lowland FC RE. Given the size of a Field Company, that's a lot of numbers (about 1,900) currently on the rolls by the time his is allocated. Remember that some would have been given to men who were at that time in (or later added to) the 2/1st and 3/1st Lowland FCs back in the UK. These in particular might then have been transferred to wherever they were needed in the RE. In other words, it's not absolutely certain that he actually served in the field with 409th (or any other) FC: only his service record would have proved that. Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 21 May , 2018 Share Posted 21 May , 2018 (edited) I agree with Clive re transfers but something does not seem quite right here. Could the OP say where the number 413901 came from? Was it from a service document for instance of was it something that jumped out of a page that seemed the right fit? Can I also ask please for the source of your information about being a signaller? I say this because I have a couple of candidates of the same name but with different numbers both of whom served in Egypt, including one who has a signal service number and the other who was with RE TF unit whose pre-war station was Renfrew. TR Edited 21 May , 2018 by Terry_Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWIresearcher Posted 21 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2018 Hello, My data comes firstly from the World War One Service Medals and Awards Roll (Royal Engineers). The information about RE Signals Corps participation was not based on fact but verbal speculation. The K.O.S.B. Regimental No. 735 confirmed separately via K.O.S.B. records. He was transferred to the 155th Machine Gun Corps as of its formation in early 1916 which was then dissolved in April 1918 when it became part of the 52nd Machine Gun Battalion. That would have happened in France when the 52nd Division had been transferred from Palestine. From the service medals and awards list the Royal Engineers Regimental No. 413901 is confirmed and rank is confirmed as Pioneer. That brings me to the next information. Within the list of RE service medal and awards I notice that a block of numbers starting with 413758 and running to 413930 appear to indicate transfers of several different Battalions from the 155th (Lowland) Brigade into the Royal Engineers. I wonder if that could have happened once the 52nd Division was re-organised in April 1918. From a look at the 409th Field Company diaries I see that there were so called "cyclists" within the company who were handling messages. I am not an expert but can imagine that motorcyclists would be used for relaying messages and not pedal cyclists. That is as much as I know thus far. Thanks for your kind help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 21 May , 2018 Share Posted 21 May , 2018 (edited) Thank you. I am trying to help here, but could I ask why you think that the KOSB, MGC and RE TF leads you to this man? There appears to be no solid , or even circumstancial evidence. For instance 72957 James Guthrie who was trained at the RE Signal Depot, Biggleswade and served in Egypt from 28.4.15 could have easily been your man. TR Edited 21 May , 2018 by Terry_Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWIresearcher Posted 21 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2018 Hello Terry, The person I am looking for started with the K.O.S.B. Regimental No. 735 and has been confirmed with date of birth and origin. I am 100% of the data on this man. What is unclear is when and with which Royal Engineers group he served. So let's assume 413901 is correct. Given that he served with the 52nd Division and survived the war I imagine the number of RE groups he could have transferred with Regimental No. 413901 to are limited. I guess the question of the day is if he could have transferred to either of the 409th Field company which was already in France as of April 1918 or the 410th Field Company which was previously in North Africa and transferred to France in April 1918 with the rest of the 52nd Division. I can't find information about the 410th Field Company so I can't tell what happened to it once was in France. However since it was part of the 52nd Division I imagine it would have been the logical choice to transfer men to from the 155th Brigade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 21 May , 2018 Share Posted 21 May , 2018 Hi WWIresearcher, The allocation of the number blocks issued to the RE TF in 1917 can be seen on the LLT here. On 03/05/2018 at 12:06, WWIresearcher said: Does anyone know if the RE 413901 regimental number can be traced to a time and place when it was given? Doing a bit of near number (4139**) sampling, I only found 413930 Foster with some surviving papers. They show that he was allotted his new number on 27th July 1918. It shows: Interestingly, his record seems to indicate that prior to this formal transfer and posting he appears to have been attached to "1503 A.O.C Coy. RE" from "6/ Siege Coy. R.M. RE". So in his particular case it seems that his 413930 (1st Lowland FC) renumber may just have been an administrative expediency to get him transferred to the TF, and perhaps he never actually served with the Lowland FC. To add to the confusion the CWGC only has 2 men having died with 413*** numbers. Unfortunately they don't appear to have surviving papers. Albeit on a very small sample size, I think that this demonstrates the point previously made in that once allocated the TF (re)number you can't really be certain about subsequent service without other corroborating records. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWIresearcher Posted 21 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2018 Hello Chris, Thanks very much this is very helpful. It's interesting that this is the last of the batch of "413***" transfers in the RE medal list that seem to be associated with the 52nd Division. I have attached what is recorded for this man in the war medals list for the RE. You can see that he transferred from the K.O.S.B. like my man did. I note Foster was transferred under an Army Order 204/1916. At least the 27th July 1918 date for 413930 gives an end point. I see from your attachment that Foster was posted to the 1503rd Artizan Works Company which was based in Ardres and well back from the front line. However above that is the "1st Lowland Field Company RE" in brackets. Perhaps the suggestion the 413*** numbers might not indicate where the men were actually serving is correct. Unfortunately service records are not easy to find for many RE people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWIresearcher Posted 22 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2018 I found the medal record for James Hammond. He transferred into the RE Signals Corp (75th Division) from the Royal Scots Fusiliers (part of the 155th Brigade and 52nd (Lowland) Division). This confirms that the 413*** series does not confirm service in the 1st (409th) Lowland Field Company. So without service records it is impossible to say what RE unit my man served in. I cannot rule out that he did join a RE Signals Company though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 22 May , 2018 Share Posted 22 May , 2018 Hi, 1 hour ago, WWIresearcher said: So without service records it is impossible to say what RE unit my man served in. I cannot rule out that he did join a RE Signals Company though. Out of interest, based on their CWGC data, I thought that I'd post the final unit of men from the 412001 - 414000 (re)number block. servicenumberExport surname date_of_death rank unitshipsquadron country of burial 412046 BEATTIE 27/05/1918 Sapper 446th Field Coy. France 412100 FOX 16/07/1918 Sapper 409th Field Coy. France 412112 ROBERTS 12/11/1918 Sapper 409th Field Coy. France 412129 STIRLING 04/11/1918 Sapper 409th Field Coy. France 412131 TAYLOR 04/11/1918 Sapper 409th Field Coy. France 412166 JONES 02/06/1918 Sapper 412th Lowland Field Coy. France 412176 WELLS 19/02/1919 Sapper 409th (Lowland) Field Coy. Germany 412186 KELLY 21/05/1918 Sapper 422nd Field Coy. France 412225 CRICHTON 25/09/1918 Sapper 409th Field Coy. France 412255 RODGER 11/11/1918 Driver 42nd Field Coy. United Kingdom 412308 HOPE 27/11/1918 Sapper 2nd/1st Field Coy. Lowland Div. United Kingdom 412332 CALDER 25/10/1917 Sapper 90th Field Coy. Belgium 412343 RUSSELL 29/10/1918 Sapper 20th Depot United Kingdom 412357 SLOSS 21/01/1919 Sapper 357th Water Coy. Egypt 412373 KENNISON 02/06/1918 Sapper 412th Lowland Field Coy. France 412387 WILSON 18/09/1918 Sapper 409th Lowland Field Coy. France 412448 ONEILL 14/04/1918 Sapper 497th Field Coy. Belgium 412496 ADAIR 04/11/1918 Sapper 409th Field Coy. France 412498 ERSKINE 06/08/1917 Sapper 76th Field Coy. Belgium 412516 THORNTON 24/05/1917 Sapper United Kingdom 412539 THOMSON 24/07/1917 Sapper 409th Field Coy. France 412544 MACDOUGALL 04/11/1918 Sapper 409th Field Coy. France 412551 OROURKE 17/02/1919 Pioneer 412th Field Coy. United Kingdom 412582 WALLACE 01/03/1919 Driver Signal Service Training Centre United Kingdom 412629 LIND 22/08/1918 Sapper 92nd Field Coy. France 412639 TORRANCE 09/11/1917 Sapper 412th Field Coy. Egypt 412656 JACK 22/08/1917 Sapper 475th Field Coy. France 412702 MILLER 04/11/1918 Lance Corporal 409th Field Coy. France 412715 CRAIG 08/03/1918 Sapper 422nd Field Coy. France 412718 HISLOP 11/11/1917 Sapper 409th Field Coy. Belgium 412748 McCUBBIN 02/06/1918 Sapper 412th Lowland Field Coy. France 412750 MEIKLE 04/11/1918 Sapper 409th Field Coy. France 412754 NIVEN 08/03/1918 Sapper 409th Field Coy. United Kingdom 412761 WILSON 03/11/1918 Sapper 5th Reserve Bn. (Christchurch) United Kingdom 412764 PICKEN 27/05/1918 Sapper 466th Field Coy. France 412828 MARSHALL 07/09/1917 Sapper 38th Div. Signal Coy. Belgium 412830 GORDON 01/11/1917 Sapper Base Signal Depot Belgium 412843 MAXWELL 23/11/1918 Sapper 7th Field Coy. Germany 412850 MOODIE 04/11/1918 Sapper 409th Field Coy. France 412852 HALL 07/11/1917 Sapper 409th (Lowland) Field Coy. Belgium 412855 PITCAITHLY 22/11/1918 Sapper 409th (Lowland) Field Coy. France 412881 JOHNSTON 22/03/1918 Sapper 97th Field Coy. France 413862 HAMMOND 27/10/1918 2nd Corporal 75th Div. Signal Coy. Israel and Palestine (including Gaza) 413915 GOFFE 30/03/1918 Sapper 3rd Field Survey Coy. France Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sjack91 Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 Could anyone assist with John Junor? He has two service numbers 4363 and 412797. He enlisted on 31st May 1916 and was discharged due to sickness on 13th September 1918 at the age of 33. When he was discharged through illness and awarded wound badge 449061 he was serving with the 20th T.F Depot. Any further information on the RE company he served with would be much appreciated. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 16 December , 2018 Share Posted 16 December , 2018 Stuart 1/1st Lowland Field Company renumbered 409 Field Company in 1917. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sjack91 Posted 17 December , 2018 Share Posted 17 December , 2018 Thanks Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sjack91 Posted 17 December , 2018 Share Posted 17 December , 2018 Is there a War diary for the 1/1st Lowland Field Company? I can only find the one for the 409 Field Company from February 1917 onward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 17 December , 2018 Share Posted 17 December , 2018 Hi Stuart, 18 minutes ago, Sjack91 said: Is there a War diary for the 1/1st Lowland Field Company? I can only find the one for the 409 Field Company from February 1917 onward At the National Archives it's here, and on Ancestry here. On 16/12/2018 at 14:39, Sjack91 said: When he was discharged...he was serving with the 20th T.F Depot My guess would be that he never actually 'served' as such with them. It may well have been a paperwork exercise. When he feel sick, it's possible that he was taken off the establishment list of his active unit, and notionally transferred to the depot in Kent, effectively creating a vacancy against a which a reinforcement could be claimed. That would also allow time for treatment and recuperation, pending a medical board assessment of whether he was fit enough to return to duties in a full or reduced capacity, or if he should be discharged. His 6 digit renumber is likely to be based sequentially on his pre 1917 4 digit number that he had with his existing unit. As there wasn't a unique numbering system in the TF RE prior to 1917 several men could have the same 4 digit number. What you can do, is look for men with (renumbers) in the 1917 number block, and see if any inferences can be made.The couple of near 6 digit number service files that I looked at suggest that they 'joined up' in he first few months of 1916, initially serving at home/training with the 4/1 (- 4th line, 1st) Lowland Field Company. In the absence of other information, I also think that you can't be 100% certain that his overseas service was with the 1/1 Lowland FC. I saw one record for a man that was renumbered to 1/Lowland FC, but whose actual overseas service was with a Divisional Signals Company. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sjack91 Posted 19 December , 2018 Share Posted 19 December , 2018 Chris Again this is excellent and gives me more to look at. His brother served with the Lowland Field company all be it with the RAMC. He told a story that he was involved in blowing up a boxed like object earl in his service which he later learned was a British tank which had broke down. I am not sure if this will be in the War diary but hoping to get an idea. Really appreciate the help here. Regards Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 19 December , 2018 Share Posted 19 December , 2018 I think that you can be sure he was physically discharged from Chatham - 20 TF Depot was in Pier Rd, just a few hundred yards from Brompton Barracks where other depot companies were based. He would not have been sent there for "for treatment and recuperation, pending a medical board assessment of whether he was fit enough to return to duties in a full or reduced capacity, or if he should be discharged" . This would have happened at the RE Command Depot, Thetford. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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