Cpl Stephen Orme Gamble, KIA 30 April 1915

[Buffnut453]

'Fraid my late start to family history research meant I missed the centenary remembrances of any relatives killed during the Great War.  However, I'd like to keep their memory alive now that I know who they are.

 

First up is Cpl Stephen Orme Gamble, KIA on 30 April 1915 when he was hit by an artillery shell.  He served in the 1st West Lancs Field Coy, RE and is buried in Ramparts Cemetery, Ypres, as shown in this 1919-vintage postcard - his is the grave closest to the camera with the large grave marker:

 

[Buffnut453]

Resurrecting this thread because I'd like to get the GWF team to take a look at these 2 photographs.  The first, as shown in the preceding post, is definitely Stephen Orme Gamble obtained from a microfiche of the local St.Helens newspaper:  

 

The second photo came from my mother and includes a group of men, none of whom have been positively identified.  I'm wondering if the man seated in the centre, with the dog, might be Stephen Orme Gamble?

On the positive side, the facial features do look similar (although the newspaper image isn't the greatest).  Also, the man seated on his right has "L&NW" collar badges for the London & North Western Railway; Stephen worked as an engine stoker/fireman on the L&NWR from at least 1911. 

On the negative side, the man in the centre appears to be better-dressed than those around him, which doesn't necessarily bespeak engine fireman...unless he got dressed up in his Sunday best for the photo.

I know photo comparisons are heavily subjective but I'd appreciate any thoughts on this pair of images.  I just want to be sure I'm not wearing my optimistic spectacles and looking for correspondence where there isn't any.  

Edited 12 August , 2022 by Buffnut453

[6RRF]

If its any help, both of the men on either side of him are wearing LNWR coats over footplatemen's overall jackets - and smoking rather extravagant looking pipes, which might suggest a connection despite the Sunday best

[TullochArd]

7 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

The second photo came from my mother and includes a group of men, none of whom have been positively identified.  I'm wondering if the man seated in the centre, with the dog, might be Stephen Orme Gamble?

I do see a physical resemblance in the two photos but this is always a dodgy conclusion under the circumstances. 

The fact this image is positively identified as a family photo is a positive.  His confirmed service in the L&NWR is another positive and further confirmed in L&NWR Gazette Volume 4, July 1915, pg. 212 which states he was a Fireman at the Locomotive Department, Sutton Oak.

The fellows seated and flanking him are in their L&NWR work clothes and present as familiar work colleagues.  The very old boy at the back and the fellow with the (possible) gammy leg on the left suggest to me there are family/friends present in the back row. Impossible to say where the photo was taken but it's not a Railway Yard, it is a domestic environment. 

He's clearly the subject of this photo and I speculate he is dressed here for his immediate departure for the military..... it's a farewell gathering......and the kind of photo that might turn up in the most local of local newspapers?

Edited 12 August , 2022 by TullochArd

[Buffnut453]

Many, MANY thanks for all the insights folks.  You've given me a lot to think about.  Stephen's service record didn't survive but it seems certain he was a pre-war Territorial.  A newspaper clipping regarding his death quotes two letters received by the family from officers in his Company.  One letter notes "He acted under me for many years, and I always found him a most trustworthy man, and a reliable soldier, and a true companion to his friends."  Another letter states that Stephen was the first combat casualty within the Company.  His unit had been advancing from Dickebusch through Ypres to Potijze Wood but the roads were being continually shelled, forcing Stephen and his mates to dash forward.  It seems Stephen mistimed one of his dashes and was hit by a shell fragment.  

I like the idea of the group photo being a farewell send-off before Stephen deployed overseas.  He went to France on 3 January 1915 so the photo probably dates from shortly after the outbreak of war.  I do find the posing in the photo significant, with the L&NWR jackets flanking the man in the centre.  The rather splendid pipes almost look like flanking salutes to the man in the centre. 

If it is Stephen in the photo, he would have just turned 31.  Territorial service was popular in the family.  Stephen's younger brother, Joseph Charles, was Company Sergeant Major in the 55th West Lancs Signal Coy.  An older brother, William James, was a Volunteer Ambulance Driver with the Red Cross.  

One puzzle is that the first photo, clearly a military portrait photo, hasn't survived in my family's collection.  One of my Great-Grandmothers, Mary Lee (nee Gamble) was Stephen's aunt.  She had photos of Joseph Charles Gamble, as well as other Gamble cousins who served.  However, there's no uniform photo of Stephen.  I'm guessing it was lost or damaged beyond repair at some point.  

Stephen was buried at Ramparts Cemetery.  This post-war card, originally sourced on GWF, shows his grave marker nearest the camera.  I'm still trying to find an original copy of it because of the family association.

I was able to pay Stephen a visit last September.  Being unfamiliar with Ramparts Cemetery, I picked an entrance and literally walked straight into Stephen's grave:

 

[steandpaula]

Looking at the photos I'd say the fella on the extreme left is more like the newspaper portrait photo, ears lower than the eyes which seem to have deeper sockets and the hairline looks similar ? 

Regards

Ste M (SHROH)

[Matlock1418]

On 30/04/2018 at 03:40, Buffnut453 said:

Cpl Stephen Orme Gamble, KIA on 30 April 1915 when he was hit by an artillery shell.  He served in the 1st West Lancs Field Coy, RE

Chanced upon your thread - This pension index card might be of interest

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

2nd Cpl Stephen Orme GAMBLE, 4485, RE (1st West Lancashire)

Also refers to is Sgt Major J C GAMBLE, 6220, RE (1st West Lancashire)

I am intrigued by the Supplementary Allowance, 23/9 pw from 21.11.16 = is a much higher figure than a dependant mother's pension might be expected to be - so what is this allowance?

On a pension ledger page reference is made of 8/- pw,  Art 21 (1)(a) from 28.8.17 - mother described as Aged and the claim became Dead/DECEASED 29.12.23 [on or certainly by that date] Payment made to 31.12.23 = such a figure is much more in line with that which might have been expected as a pension [up to 15/- pw was possible in 1917]

M

Edited 7 February , 2023 by Matlock1418

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

I am intrigued by the Supplementary Allowance, 23/9 pw from 21.11.16 = is a much higher figure than a dependant mother's pension might be expected to be - so what is this allowance?

There is a reference in Hansard of 20 Mar 1919 between Mr Stanley Johnson and Sir L. Worthington-Evans (Pension Minister) regarding Deceased Soldiers Dependents which offers the one liner "the amount of the (dependants) pension is based largely on the pecuniary need of the applicant" 

Could this Supplementary Allowance be something to do with a particular "pecuniary need"? 

[Buffnut453]

9 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Chanced upon your thread - This pension index card might be of interest

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

2nd Cpl Stephen Orme GAMBLE, 4485, RE (1st West Lancashire)

Also refers to is Sgt Major J C GAMBLE, 6220, RE (1st West Lancashire)

I am intrigued by the Supplementary Allowance, 23/9 pw from 21.11.16 = is a much higher figure than a dependant mother's pension might be expected to be - so what is this allowance?

On a pension ledger page reference is made of 8/- pw,  Art 21 (1)(a) from 28.8.17 - mother described as Aged and the claim became Dead/DECEASED 29.12.23 [on or certainly by that date] Payment made to 31.12.23 = such a figure is much more in line with that which might have been expected as a pension [up to 15/- pw was possible in 1917]

M

 

Hi Matlock,

Many, MANY thanks for sharing Stephen's pension record.  The info on his mother is bang on the money: she died on 29 Dec 1923.  She was born in 1854 so presumably 69 was considered aged.

Sgt Major J C Gamble is Joseph Charles Gamble, Stephen's younger brother.  Here's a rather splendid photo of Joseph who, I'm reasonably convinced, served in the 55th (West Lancs) Division Signals Coy:

Edited 8 February , 2023 by Buffnut453

[brianmorris547]

There is a Green End Lane on google maps near the hospital on Marshalls Cross Rd but the buildings look more modern than the cobbles in the photo. I wondered if the pic was taken at Sherdley Villa.

Brian

EDIT 1901 and 1911 census shows the family at 1 Green End Lane, West Sutton.

Edited 8 February , 2023 by brianmorris547
additional info

[Buffnut453]

17 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

There is a Green End Lane on google maps near the hospital on Marshalls Cross Rd but the buildings look more modern than the cobbles in the photo. I wondered if the pic was taken at Sherdley Villa.

Brian

EDIT 1901 and 1911 census shows the family at 1 Green End Lane, West Sutton.

Hi Brian,

Yes, the whole area around Green End Lane was redeveloped (some parts multiple times).  I'm still having difficulties tying down Sherdley Villa but the search continues.  

Cheers,
Mark

[brianmorris547]

Mark

I used to go onto Oldmapsuk but the site stopped a few years ago. A Forum Member advised me that old maps were on the NLS system. Here is the link:

https://maps.nls.uk/os/6inch-england-and-wales/

This is from a 1906 map, courtesy NLS, but there are others. You might find it useful. I wonder if the group photo was ever in the papers.

I looked at the St Helens Examiner on the BNA via FMP for May 1915 to see if there was a report of his death but no success. It was a weekly paper and there were four editions. It was hard work, a lot of papers seem to cover St Helens e.g. The Runcorn Examiner, Widnes Examiner and the Liverpool papers. I searched under Gamble but got hits on every gambling activity in Britain. If that photo was in the papers then there must be an article somewhere.

The letter that he was the first casualty of the Company is correct in that he was the first to be k in a. A civilian worker was killed and two Sappers were wounded on 17/03/1915. A Driver was wounded and two horses killed on 08/03/1915 and the WD for 21/04/1915 records that 6485 Spr H Kingsley was wounded in the leg in Mud Lane.

From February to April the Company were at La Gheer which is on the bottom right of Ploegsteert Wood. They tried to start Mine Shafts with the newly formed 174 Tunnelling Co but were defeated by water. There are good maps of the area, which show Mud Lane, in the WDs of 4 Div HQ GS WO 95/1441.

Brian