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Pte 1317 Ernest Handson - RMLI


Shiny

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Hi All,

 

I'm trying to find out about Pte Ernest Handson who served with A Coy in the Royal Marines Light Infantry. I've found a second number for him which is PO 11924 and he is on the 1911 census as being in the RN Hospital in Haslar as a member of the Royal Marines so must have been in before the war.

 

I have found a medal roll for him and a record on the Red Cross POW records which say he was captured on the 9th of October 1914 at Antwerp.

 

I've just been trying to find the war diary on Ancestry for the time of his capture but I'm not having much luck.

 

Can anyone find the diary or tell me anything else about him?

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Michael

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Michael 

 

 I cannot help you regarding the war dairy but have you checked the Royal Marine records at the National Archive under ADM 159.

They appear to have all the RM records from pre war to 1925.

 

 I hope this helps.

 

Malcolm  

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His RM record is under Handsom and the second number you quote. Does show taken prisoner at Antwerp 14/10/14. Served from  6/10/01. Final service in 1921. LS and GC Medal. Think I have found a pic of him. More tomorrow. 

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Per Fevyer & Wilson's book 'The 1914 Star to the RN & RM' his 1914 Star was issued under number PO11924 at RMLI Gosport 14 May 1919 and his clasp was issued 3 October 1923.

They also show that he appears on the list of POWs published by The Times on 21 December 1914

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This is the ICRC entry you are referring to :

                                 5ae62352eff6c_HandsonERMLIICRCheader.JPG.ea273dcaa46bd7586590a62c731121ca.JPG

 

 

 

                                 5ae62082da9a7_HandsonERMLIICRC.JPG.511179871b443aedd1d7a572756c490a.JPG

 

If you google Doberitz PoW Camp (nr Berlin) you will find quite a lot about this camp where a lot of the Naval Bde taken at Antwerp were sent.

 

He seems to have been transferred to Dyrotz Camp about Sept 1915 ? (where the above Nov 1916 listing was prepared) Dyrotz was about 7 miles from Doberitz. Also worth googling.

 

Charlie

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Hi All,

 

Thank you all so much for the help with this.

 

He is the relative of a friend whom my local Sea Cadet unit have decided to make part of a WW1 display they are doing for their admiralty inspection. My friend doesn't know a huge amount about him although he has got a couple of postcards that he sent home from one of the POW camps. I'll have to try and get a look at them to see which one they are from.

 

I was hoping to get a bit more information about him for their display and then get my friend to come and see it as a surprise for him.

 

Thanks again for the help,

 

Michael

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Michael

see PM.

Mark

edit. The man himself

5ae6d70136d5c_handsonpic.jpg.8f0c96ab3f94d4b024ea5189c6572c7e.jpg

Edited by Mark1959
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There are a few inconsistencies in his DOB. However, it is a rare name and my belief all the Ernest Handsom or Handson born c 1880-1881 are him

Born March 1880 Bedale 

Baptised April 1880 Bedale

Birth Reg 2Q 1880 Bedale

1881 Census Bedale aged 1

1891 - not found

1901 - Boarder, Middlesborough - Engine Cleaner aged 21. Place of birth Bedale

Aug 1901 - enlists

1911 - Haslar

1914 - POW

1919 - leaves service 29/4/19, registers as Merchant seaman next day

1921 - back in service for 2 months - apparently so he can get his gratuity

1933 - Possibly marries Mary A Robson, Newcastle.

1939 - living in Gosforth with Mary A. Men's Room Attendant LNER

1956 - Death Reg. 2Q, Northumberland South, Aged 76.

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Hi Mark,

 

I've replied to your PM, thank you so much for all your help.

 

The info you have put above matches what I have found on Ancestry although you have a lot of extra things on there compared to what I have found so far.

 

Thanks again,

 

Michael

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2 hours ago, Shiny said:

he has got a couple of postcards that he sent home from one of the POW camps

We'd always be interested to see these if possible

Charlie

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I'll try and get a copy tonight and get them posted.

 

Michael

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Having completed his 12-year continuous service engagement in 1913, he joined the Royal Fleet Reserve (RFR) and was mobilised on the outbreak of the war. He was demobilised in 1919. Mobilised from the RFR again in 1921 for the national miners' strikes - nothing to do with gratuities. He claimed his Victory and British War medals as a civilian.

 

Further papers for him in ADM 157 at Kew - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14601529

 

The number quoted in the topic title is his RFR No. B.1317.

Edited by horatio2
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Thanks a lot Horatio2, I'll have to see if I can get a copy of the papers.

 

How do you know it was for the miners strikes and that he claimed his medals as a civilian? I'm not doubting you, I'm just trying to learn.

 

Thanks for the help,

 

Michael

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1 hour ago, Shiny said:

How do you know it was for the miners strikes and that he claimed his medals as a civilian? I'm not doubting you, I'm just trying to learn.

 

Michael,

There was a very large mobilisation of the armed forces  for the 1921 miners' strike. Some info here (mainly army) :- http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/other-aspects-of-order-of-battle/defence-force-1921/?COLLCC=4022369747 but the RMLI were also mobilised in large numbers from the RFR between mid-April and Mid-June. I can see no other reason for his being mobilised for two months in 1921, as reported at Post  #8.

His medals were issued as described by michaeldr at Post#4. The other two medals were issued to him in person (not in a ship or barracks) after he was demobilised. The details are in the RM Medal Roll ADM 171/169 at Kew.

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Hi All, these are the postcards he sent. Both have the same group photo on the front.

 

Michael 

20180430_183643.jpg

20180430_183703.jpg

20180430_183354.jpg

My friend also had two photos in with them.

20180430_183525.jpg

20180430_183533.jpg

Edited by Shiny
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His service papers in 1921 states “enrolled royal fleet reserve to complete time for Gratuity”. Hence my previous statement. 

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Mark1959, Thank you very much for the clarification. I read your earlier post as meaning a re-entry into the RMLI, not the RFR. He was eligible for a £50 RFR gratuity when he was 40 years old (March 1920) and had completed 20 years RMLI and RFR combined time (August 1921, assuming he was in the RFR 1913-1914 - which it appears he was - and again 1919-1921. If he did not remain in the RFR on demob in March 1919, he would have less than 18 years combined service so would need to make up 17 months service. Two months RFR service in 1921 would not achieve this. What were his RFR dates in 1921? A bit of a puzzle.

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It did sound peculiar. No RM or RN knowledge of any depth so took it on face value. Will PM you tomorrow so you can judge document yourself. Just off out for the evening

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On 29/04/2018 at 20:06, michaeldr said:

They also show that he appears on the list of POWs published by The Times on 21 December 1914

 

Michaeldr, could you tell me where you found this please?

 

I've been to the library and looked on the British newspaper archive and it doesn't seem to have the times on there.

 

Thanks a lot, 

 

Michael 

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Thanks to Mark1959 for showing me the ADM 159 record.

I think the 1919 entry shows that on demobilisation he went straight back to the RFR so that he could complete the 20 years combined RMLI and RFR time to earn his RFR Gratuity in late 1921.

As I suspected his mobilisation from April to June 1921 was for the miners' strikes, after which he would have continued his RFR time (although this is not stated on the record I think it can be taken for granted). Men were normally discharged from the RFR at age 40 but were allowed to stay on until age 45 in order to complete their 20 years. In this case he hit his 40th birthday in March 1920 but remained in the RFR to collect his 20-year gratuity in August 1921.

The "Times" list is in the F&W book quoted by michaeldr in his Post#4.

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T

35 minutes ago, Shiny said:

British newspaper archive

Findmypast comes up with this. OK B'ham post is not The Times but info probably the same ?

            5aea035866387_HandsonERMLICaslist.JPG.4c7fd7a13029aee481e132e2f366088e.JPG

 

Charlie

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14 hours ago, Shiny said:

Michaeldr, could you tell me where you found this please?

I've been to the library and looked on the British newspaper archive and it doesn't seem to have the times on there. 

 

In their book, Fevyer & Wilson reproduce the whole of the list; see pages 207 - 214, including the brief preamble/explanation from the Secretary of the Admiralty

The date is given as December 21st 1914, and what must have been the newspaper's headline read 'Royal Naval Division Men Captured - The Operation at Antwerp'

 

edit to add: the preamble refers to a previous list published earlier on November 21st (1914) - [there were 954 names on the first list compared with 888 in the list as published in The Times]

 

Edited by michaeldr
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Thanks again for the help everyone.

 

I'll get back to the library and get that Birmingham post page. I might find something using that headline as well.

 

Horatio2, you mentioned 20 years service there and in a previous post you mention 12 years. Are these different lengths of engagement for different gratuities / pensions ?

 

I ask because that may add to another person I'm looking at.

 

Michael 

 

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Twelve years was the length of the Continuous Service (CS) engagement to which a man signed up initially, thereafter he could be discharged (perhaps to join the RFR, if he wished) or he could remain in the service by signing up to a further nine years to take him to pension. Twenty years combined active plus RFR service was required to earn an RFR Gratuity. So, for a man who was discharged after his twelve years (this is termed Discharged Limited Engagement (DLE)) he would earn his RFR Gratuity after eight years in the RFR (12 + 8).

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