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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Battle of Havrincourt


Bernard Payne

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I'm from New Zealand and my grandfather was part of the NZ Division  that saw action at Havrincourt on 12-14/9/18. He was gassed on 14th.

I'm going  to be in Northern France in mid August this year and will be visiting a few cemetery sites and possibly le Quesnoy that the NZ troops liberated. 

Is it possible to find out exactly where my grandfather would have been when he was gasses (he did survive  but died in his 50s).

I know there was a particularity heavy gas bombardment on his gunnery position that day with many casualties 

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Hi Bernard,

 

His name and unit would be helpful.

 

The Official Histories and unit war diaries would be a good place to start.

 

Scott

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Name - Ivan Victor Payne

 

Not sure of unit but it was artillery 

 

See on his military  record was gassed  what appears to be 3 days in a row 14-16/9

Does the following mean anything  ie a location ? A36  W4912,    A36  W4892,    w3034 w4958 as they were written alongside each date

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Hi Bernard,

 

Ivan's records are a bit confusing and difficult to read, however it looks like he was transferred to the 15th Battery of the 1st Brigade of the New Zealand Field Artillery from 1st Brigade HQ around the middle of August 1917. He initially enlisted with the New Zealand 1st Field Artillery Brigade before being appointed as a cook in November 1915.

 

Looking at this site the 15th Battery was a Howitzer battery and part of the 1st Brigade NZFA at the time in question. You would need to obtain the war diaries for the brigade to locate their position accurately.

 

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/new-zealand-artillery

 

Scott

 

Note: Link to Ivan's records-

 

https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=20799738&digital=yes

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Bernard,

 

No maps, but this text from the New Zealand Artillery in the Field, 1914-18, has them at Havrincourt Wood at the time and mention of the casualties  due to gas on p.270-271.

 

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WH1NZAr-t1-body-d2-d11.html#n348

 

Havrincourt Wood looks like the place. War Diaries still need to be looked at.

 

Scott

Edited by Waddell
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The attachment early in the month to the British 5th Division is reflected in the Commander Royal Artillery's diary where it notes the movement  of an RFA brigade into "the NZ Div area south of Havrincourt Wood".

Gets us a bit closer!

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=13&lat=50.0736&lon=3.0749&layers=101465206&right=BingHyb

Wood at the top left, nearest villages easily found on present day maps.

 

Max

 

 

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18 hours ago, Waddell said:

Hi Bernard,

 

Ivan's records are a bit confusing and difficult to read, however it looks like he was transferred to the 15th Battery of the 1st Brigade of the New Zealand Field Artillery from 1st Brigade HQ around the middle of August 1917. He initially enlisted with the New Zealand 1st Field Artillery Brigade before being appointed as a cook in November 1915.

 

Looking at this site the 15th Battery was a Howitzer battery and part of the 1st Brigade NZFA at the time in question. You would need to obtain the war diaries for the brigade to locate their position accurately.

 

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/new-zealand-artillery

 

Scott

 

Note: Link to Ivan's records-

 

https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=20799738&digital=yes

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Thanks Scott

My late father (ww2 Pacific) had all the details of his dad's war effort including being one of the last evacuees of Gallipoli but it seems it must have been victim of one of late mother's cleansing efforts.

We knew sketchy pieces of info and I found the online record but found it nearly possible to decipher, as you saw very hard to read and follow but I will follow up the dairy's , thanks

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17 hours ago, MaxD said:

The attachment early in the month to the British 5th Division is reflected in the Commander Royal Artillery's diary where it notes the movement  of an RFA brigade into "the NZ Div area south of Havrincourt Wood".

Gets us a bit closer!

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=13&lat=50.0736&lon=3.0749&layers=101465206&right=BingHyb

Wood at the top left, nearest villages easily found on present day maps.

 

Max

 

 

Thanks Max

Cool maps comparison

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Bernard

 

The NZ Artillery was reorganised a few times during the course of the war.

 

Your guy is a cook - rising to the position of Temp Sgt, with the artillery until 16/8/1917,  when he moves to the 15th Battery. His Mil File states that he relinquished his position of T/Sgt becoming a Gunner (= private in the artillery). 

The fact r=that the file says he relinquished the position is weight enough to say he was no longer a cook and now a gunner.

 

15th Battery was a Howitzer battery, and part of (at this stage of the war) 1st Brigade NZ Field Artillery.

1st NZFA was made up of 4 batteries and at this stage of the war (each with 6 guns) those were: 1st, 3rd, 7th & 15th Batteries. 1, 3, & 7 batteries were field guns (flat trajectory)  18 pounders. 15th Battery was 6 Howitzer guns. 4.5 inch.

 

There is an original WW1 Howitzer in the Auckland Museum.

 

So being with the 15th Battery and gassed on 14th Sept 1918, would put him in Havrincourt Wood.

 

The original War Diary for 1st Brigade states:

6th Sept  "4 PM 15th Battery moved forward to P 12 d." 

if you know how to read a mil map that places them - using the link from MAX. to just west of Havrincourt Wood. Find P and then section 12 which is divided into four squares, they are A & B along top and C & D under. P 12 d is therefore between Havirincourt Wood and the A2 motorway on the ridge called "Somerset Spur".

 

9th Sept - at "4 PM 1st and 15th Battery moved forward into Havrincourt Wood." (no specific location given) the diary notes that the batteries remained silent here as the Germans held the high ground at Q 24 & Q 29 and to avoid giving away positions before the attack  scheduled to capture Gouzeaucourt Ridge - Trescault Spur on 12th.

14th Sept -  "1st and 15th batteries had 5 Officers and 61 O/R gassed whilst firing on S.O.S." .... "during the morning, whilst firing on S.O.S., the 15th Battery were subjected to heavy gas shelling. As a result, Major Milligan, Lts Gibbons, Smythe and Jordan and 41 O/R had to be evacuated.".

 

Cheers Roger

 

Edited by jacksdad
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IMG_5310.JPG.8bdf79a30ba166be51d049df05671ce9.JPG

 

going by this map in the 1st Brigade diary, 15th Battery position would 'probably' be within the NZ DIV boundary of Havrincourt Wood. therefore in the bottom part of the wood. perhaps 13 a & b or shown in this map 14 a 7 b.

 

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If your visiting the area. The New Zealand infantry advanced around the bottom half of the Wood and the battle of Trescault Spur took place with the New Zealanders advancing up the valley towards Gouzeaucourt. a particularly difficult job over several days.

Harry Laurent was awarded the VC leading his men in the field just north east of Gouzeaucourt village.  it would be fair to say he got lost when he advanced across the sunken road (Q 29 d) - his objective - and continued up the hill  jumping into a German reserve  trench - full of Germans. 

Sergeant Laurent like a cornered cat, simply attacked, it must have been a frightful and magnificent sight. Hand to Hand fighting broke out in the trench, one of the party Corporal Edward William Wood “fired his Lewis gun from the hip while moving along the top of the trench, inflicting heavy casualties”. Another Private Maurice Healey, who in the confusion of the fighting, became “isolated from the rest of the patrol, he carried on the fight alone, killing ten of the enemy with bayonet and bullet, and wounding an officer of high rank”. Several of the Kiwis were wounded and one killed but the Germans, completely demoralised, surrendered. Laurent gathered up his men and the Germans and fought a rear guard action back to the New Zealand trenches. 

Private Healey was awarded the D.C.M. and Corporal Wood the M.M.

 

Metz-en-Couture Communal Cemetery - nearby has 43 New Zealanders buried there, including L/Corp Ernest Dodd - of the 1905 Originals, one of 13 All Blacks killed in the war.

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On 28/04/2018 at 22:37, Bernard Payne said:

Name - Ivan Victor Payne

 

Not sure of unit but it was artillery 

 

See on his military  record was gassed  what appears to be 3 days in a row 14-16/9

Does the following mean anything  ie a location ? A36  W4912,    A36  W4892,    w3034 w4958 as they were written alongside each date

 

Hi Bernard

He was gassed 14/9/1918 and the incident recorded on his file 21/9/1918.

but just one incident

 

Cheers Roger

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