VC Recommendations downgraded to nothing

[Guest]

I am doing some research into a relative who was recommended for a VC in 1918. He was an officer who survived the war.

I have the three citations and all who recommended him were certain he would get it. However I am aware that a great number of VC's were downgraded to DCM/DSO's, however nothing came of it at all. He did not receive the VC or any lesser award, in fact he received nothing. I was wondering how common this might have been? 

 

It was our family's understanding that his recommendation was left in the "pending tray" when Armistice was declared and "slipped through the cracks" ultimately never to be dealt with, while Britain undertook the huge task of rebuilding their nation. 

 

After the war one of the men who recommended him for the VC was astonished to discover it had not be conferred and wrote to the General in charge of the division in 1919. This General explained that he had indeed sent the recommendation onwards to the higher authorities, explaining that if so much delay had not occurred he had "little doubt that he would have received his award". He then explained it had presumable been turned down, as there were scores of similar cases to deal with now, since the war concluded a year ago. However, if it was turned down surely it would have been downgraded to a DSO?

 

Is it possible that they did in fact review the recommendations and decide to award him nothing at all, instead of downgrading the award?

Did this ever happen? If so, how often?

I should mention too that he was awarded the MC only months earlier for a less courageous act, but a courageous act none the less. 

[WilliamRev]

A year or so ago I was researching the father of a friend who had received a DCM instead of the VC that his CO had recommended. I'll try to find the thread on the forum, but essentially it turned out that very little paperwork has survived.

 

It seemed to us (and it would be great to hear from others who have looked into this, and perhaps know better) that perhaps one in twenty men recommended for a VC actually got one, and of the others, around half received a lesser award, and half got nothing. Posthumous VC recommendations usually received a Mention in Dispatches.

 

Family stories abound about the recommendation of gallantry medals, and how Uncle Albert failed to get the VC that was definitely due to him. (My grandfather (in avatar) was always a bit miffed that he missed out on a MC at Polygon Wood that he expected to get.)

 

William 

[Lawryleslie]

This happened during the Falklands Conflict. The official history of the Battle for Port Stanley and Government House has us believe that the Royal Marines capitulated and surrendered after a brief defence killing one and wounding six Argentinians. The true account, the First Casualty,  written last year by Ricky Phillips using personal evidence from Marines who fought the defence estimates at least 50 killed may be up to 100 and more than 35 seriously wounded. 23 Argentinian Marines were killed when their Amtrak was hit by Anti Tank weapon, the official history states that the Amtrak was "lightly damaged". There were recommendations for 7 MCs and several MiDs made by Sir Rex Hunt, Governor at the time and Major Norman who was the CO of NP8901 at the time. These recommendations were ignored by the MoD.

[Guest]

I should mention also that have in my possession all documentation to back up these claims, so it’s certainly no family legend. Re: Letters, recommendations.

 

I suspect that they may well give some VC recommendees no award at all, which seems unfathomable that such a practice took place. Would it really hurt to at least give them an MC if not a DSO?

 

Beside I’m sure Sir John Holmes will have ensured that no award is ever conferred give his medal review...

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

My grandfather, then Capt W. F. Lindsay, 53 Bn AIF, was recommended for the MC, but the Citation was not acted upon.

Nonetheless, not long after, he again distinguished himself, being wounded in the process (a VC action: Pte Currey), and a second Citation was acted upon, and his MC gazetted.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Edited 24 April , 2018 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[Perth Digger]

One would expect that a man who survived the action for which he was recommended for a VC would get a lesser award, but amongst those who died in the action in which they were recommended could not get a lesser award. They possibly made up most of those who didn't get anything. So Djhol4's relative may have been more unusual than the raw figures may suggest.

 

MIke

[DavidOwen]

Whilst not pertinent to the award of a VC it does appear that lesser awards were limited to a monthly quota for at least the majority of the conflict (and so relevant to the thread)

Whether those quotas were ever actually reached? (Seems not on reading subsequent pages)

Now that did surprise me!

https://archive.org/stream/statisticsofmili00grea#page/558/mode/2up/search/decorations

David

Edited 24 April , 2018 by DavidOwen
Answered my own question

[David_Underdown]

1 hour ago, Perth Digger said:

One would expect that a man who survived the action for which he was recommended for a VC would get a lesser award, but amongst those who died in the action in which they were recommended could not get a lesser award.

They could be Mentioned in Despatches as I understood it.

[Perth Digger]

The ones who most missed out on medals were the Old Contemptibles. No MMs or MCs for them (apart from a few backdated in early 1915). Only VCs, DSOs and DCMs.

Edited 24 April , 2018 by Perth Digger

[Perth Digger]

MID was not a gong, David. I perhaps should have been more explicit when using "award" .

 

Mike

[WilliamRev]

5 hours ago, Djhol4 said:

I should mention also that have in my possession all documentation to back up these claims, so it’s certainly no family legend. Re: Letters, recommendations.

 

I suspect that they may well give some VC recommendees no award at all, which seems unfathomable that such a practice took place. Would it really hurt to at least give them an MC if not a DSO?

 

Beside I’m sure Sir John Holmes will have ensured that no award is ever conferred give his medal review...

 

Sorry Djhol4, I didn't mean to imply that in your relative's case it was merely a family legend; rather that the process of getting a gallantry award is generally misunderstood.

 

Being recommended for an award involved the CO filling in a W3121 (an Australian one helpfully shown by Kim above - nearly all British ones were destroyed in the blitz): this was just the start of a long process which saw the form pass to Brigade CO, then to Division CO, then to Corps, to Army CO, and up to C in C.  At each stage the recommendation could be amended (i.e. upgraded/downgraded) or rejected. In theory there were as many awards available as were deserved, but in practice we know that there were quotas for some awards, as David mentions above.

 

It seems that this process was not generally known to officers and men on the ground, hence the common assumption that a recommendation was bound to yield an award. And of course, the system had to cope with keen battalion COs who were constantly firing off W3121s to their Brigade HQ, and those who used them sparingly. 

 

William

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Djhol4 said:

However, if it was turned down surely it would have been downgraded to a DSO?

 

 

   Not necessarily-as  William has outlined above. The system would work perfectly if there was an absolute consistency in the system of recommendation between those doing the recommending.  At the higher levels  (ie above battalion) , not only did the criteria have to be met by more detached scrutineers but also, in terms of realpolitik, the zeal of the those recommending.  If a CO recommended a man,say, for the VC in the knowledge that a DSO would result if a "near miss", then that would be a back-door way of a battalion commander securing a DSO for one of his officers.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and William,

William's explanation in his Post # 11, regarding the path of Recommendations for Decorations was right on target!

As one can see in my Post #5 (the HQ 5 Aust Div report signed by Brig.-Gen. Stewart), downgrading - as well as upgrading - was very much a part of the process:-

Lt Tofler's DSO was downgraded to an MC.

Lts Bevan and Dexter's "Mentions" were upgraded to MCs.

Pte Smith, E. J. had his DCM downgraded to an MM.

L/Cpl Groves' MM was unsure...

Sigs Ramsden and Walker's "Mentions" were unsure...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[UKAIF]

Another example of a VC recommendation that came to nothing can be found in 5th Aus Div papers at the AWM, Canberra. They contain a citation for the VC to Major A.J.S. Hutchinson, 58th Bn dated 3rd August 1916. The citation reads:

 

At Petillon on the night 19th/20th July, 1916, Major Hutchinson displayed conspicuous and gallant leadership. On the evening of the 19th/20th July, 1916, a message came from 5th Division that the 61st Division on our right would renew the attack at 9pm on the SUGAR LOAF Salient and notwithstanding that the previous attack by a battalion had manifestly failed, Major Hutchinson led the two companies of the 58th Battalion under his command in the most gallant manner under an appalling fire until he fell riddled with machine gun bullets close under the German parapet. His life and the lives of his men were gallantly given in the hope of aiding the attack of the 61st Division, which unfortunately was not made.

 

Written across the bottom of the page is 'No award'. No reason is given.

 

I've also come across an MM award that apparently was made but cancelled when the soldier was taken POW in Palestine; again, no reason has been ascertained.(6456 Pte L.H. Skyring, 2nd Light Horse Field Ambulance, Australian Army Medical Corps who died in captivity 9th August 1918 and is buried in Baghdad (North Gate) War Cemetery.

 

Paul