Fattyowls Posted 22 April , 2018 Share Posted 22 April , 2018 This photograph was sent to me via a local premiership football team from my friend Thom. Both said football team and Thom seem to think that I know something about WW1, but despite my protestations to the contrary they have put their faith in me coming up with some information about it. I may not know a lot about WW1 but I know some guys (in the non gender specific sense) who do. What I do know is that this is the D Company of the 3/5th King's Liverpool as that is both written and typed on the original. They are on the pitch at a football ground and are looking up at the photographer who I think is in a stand. The advertisements on the other side of the pitch suggest a dedicated stadium which I thought at first might be Marine FC's Rossett Park (now the palatial Aviva Travel Stadium); but having studied it in a bit more detail I'm not sure. It's not the two main grounds on Merseyside and a stadium surrounded by terraced housing doesn't exactly narrow it down. Now for the speculation: I think this may be a reserve fixture involving Everton in season 1914-15. I think that the player nearest the group is possibly Louis Weller, who served with the Machine Gun Corps under his real name Lewis Charles Weller. He would later join the MMGS, but his enlistment was recorded as around the end of May/beginning of June 1915 which may give a latest date for the photo. My friend Thom whose surname is Lester also thinks his Great uncle who was a carpenter is in the photo, Thom thinks he didn't return from the war, but the two Lester casualties from the King's I can find are both from the south east; I'll have to follow this up with him. The group appears to be a mix of young men and older soldiers who may be veterans, some in full kit some not. There appears to be one rifle for the whole company which may be a Lee Metford. Since the 3/5th only formed in May 1915 this may narrow the possible date range down even further. Any observations and suggestions would be gratefully received. I think it's a cracking photo either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrenchrat22 Posted 22 April , 2018 Share Posted 22 April , 2018 3/5th Battalion was formed at Liverpool in May 1915, in the autumn moved to Blackpool and early 1916 to Oswestry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 22 April , 2018 Share Posted 22 April , 2018 There was a Bridge House Hotel in Blackpool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 22 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2018 Thanks lads, I've got a book of the Aerofilms photographs of football grounds somwhere; I'll go and see if it's got a picture of Bloomfield Road. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 22 April , 2018 Share Posted 22 April , 2018 Nuttalls Brewery (see boundary advert) was in Blackburn, but may well have had pubs in Blackpool. Anything known about Saidman, perhaps the photographer? Daggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 22 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2018 16 minutes ago, daggers said: Nuttalls Brewery (see boundary advert) was in Blackburn, but may well have had pubs in Blackpool. Anything known about Saidman, perhaps the photographer? Daggers Thanks mate. Thom didn't recognise the name 'Saidman'; I assumed it was the photographer and it's another good line of enquiry. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 22 April , 2018 Share Posted 22 April , 2018 M&R Saidman were photographers in Blackpool in the late 20s/30s, but were too young to have taken this photo. Their father, George, was born in Poland in 1871 and was a photographer in Hoole on the 1911 census, however three of his sons had been born in Blackpool. He moved back to Blackpool some time after 1911 and died there in 1959. Certainly, any search for "Saidman" and "photographer" seems to lead us back to Blackpool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 23 April , 2018 Share Posted 23 April , 2018 Pete On the east side of Bloomfield Rd there is a row of terraced houses (on what is now Henry St) that is about that size and backs on to the ground. On the west side of the ground there were railway lines into Blackpool Central. Blackpool Library History Centre was not open today but I will go on Friday or Saturday to check the football/sports in the papers from Autumn 1915 to Spring 1916. I will also look at the rear of Henry St. There is an alleyway between the ground and the rear of the street. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 23 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2018 57 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said: Pete On the east side of Bloomfield Rd there is a row of terraced houses (on what is now Henry St) that is about that size and backs on to the ground. On the west side of the ground there were railway lines into Blackpool Central. Blackpool Library History Centre was not open today but I will go on Friday or Saturday to check the football/sports in the papers from Autumn 1915 to Spring 1916. I will also look at the rear of Henry St. There is an alleyway between the ground and the rear of the street. Brian Much appreciated Brian, that's the conclusion that I came to using Google Earth and looking at some old Aerofilms pictures; it makes me feel confident of the id of Bloomfield Road. The buildings over the fence to the left are stand alone premises between the ground and the houses. I'd originally though they were outriggers on the terraced houses but on closer inspection they don't have windows or at least not in the right place; the camera has foreshortened the perspective. I really appreciate you looking at the papers; I'll have a look through the club records for the same period. Thanks to everyone for all the assistance, it's been outstanding. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 24 April , 2018 Share Posted 24 April , 2018 (edited) Pete I'll check old maps at the library as well but I think the terrace on Henry St is more than 100 years old. I often use a site old-maps.co.uk When I was a teenager in the 60s we used to go on the kop but in the 80s we would stand in the Scratching Sheds as the East Stand was known, I seem to remember the Outhouses opposite the turnstiles in the alleyway. I believe that league football was suspended in 1915 but lots of representitive matches were played. Brian Edited 24 April , 2018 by brianmorris547 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 24 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2018 11 hours ago, brianmorris547 said: Pete I'll check old maps at the library as well but I think the terrace on Henry St is more than 100 years old. I often use a site old-maps.co.uk When I was a teenager in the 60s we used to go on the kop but in the 80s we would stand in the Scratching Sheds as the East Stand was known, I seem to remember the Outhouses opposite the turnstiles in the alleyway. I believe that league football was suspended in 1915 but lots of representitive matches were played. Brian This is above and beyond the call of duty Brian, thank you. As you say the growing controversy over the continuation of football resulted in the suspension of league football in the spring of 1915. Subsequently local leagues were established and the players at least in Everton's case were signed as amateurs, as they were either in the forces or working in industry (some had a trade which they followed in the summer break before the war). Players who didn't work on a Saturday afternoon were selected along with those in the forces who happened to be local or home on leave. There's a story to be told about how some players were found war work rather than joining up, I hope to make time to research it properly soon. Pete. P.S. I've got to ask; why was the east stand called the Scratching Sheds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 24 April , 2018 Share Posted 24 April , 2018 (edited) Sorry Edited 24 April , 2018 by mancpal I was being thick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 24 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2018 20 minutes ago, mancpal said: I’ve just focused in on photo showing the football ground and I notice a typed/stamped marking which could well say B/Pool. Im sure about the pool bit. Anyone else see it? Simon You definitely don't need to go to Specsavers Simon, good spot. When I first saw it I took it to be the same text roughly as that written on the bottom, I think the pool is part of L'pool and the letters Regt are just beyond it. I think I can make out D co at the start very faintly, and there appears to be a 5 above Oxo on the hoarding. The typewriter it was done on had a seriously powerful full stop. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 24 April , 2018 Share Posted 24 April , 2018 I think after the first heavy full stop it says 3/5 . There are other bits of type but I can’t make them out. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wandererpaul Posted 24 April , 2018 Share Posted 24 April , 2018 10 minutes ago, mancpal said: I think after the first heavy full stop it says 3/5 . There are other bits of type but I can’t make them out. Simon It says what the OP said the picture was of, "D Co. 3/5 Kings L'Pool. Regt." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 24 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2018 1 hour ago, mancpal said: Sorry Simon, nothing to be sorry about. You should have heard some of the wilder theories that I've had suggested by some of my football historian chums about the photo...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 27 April , 2018 Share Posted 27 April , 2018 On 24/04/2018 at 19:49, Fattyowls said: P.S. I've got to ask; why was the east stand called the Scratching Sheds? Pete I don't know. Not the obvious because every school in Blackpool had a nit nurse. Anyway The Blackpool Gazette 03/09/1915 had an article previewing the football season which was to start the following day. It explained the new non professional set up of the league and printed a list of fixtures. The home game v Everton was 18/12/1915. Fast Forward to the Gazette for 21/12/1915 and there is a report of the game which Everton won 4-1. The Everton team is named as: T Fern, R Thompson, J S Maconnachie, T Fleetwood, W Wareing, C Grenyer, S Chedgzoy, F Jefferies, W Wright, J Clennel and G Harrison. Ref H H Taylor (Altrincham). The report mentions khaki-clad soldiers from the Mersey side who were uproarious with delight. There is another report in the Blackpool Herald of 21/12/1915. There is evidence that 3/5 KLR were in Blackpool in the Herald of the same day, which reported on a boxing competition held at the Tower Circus on the previous Friday. It mentions Pte J Glanister of 3/5 KLR in the principal feature of the various contests. The History Centre are aware of the Saidman Brothers, Moishe who in 1931 was working for Kemsleys Newspapers and Reuben who worked for the Daily Herald. Another brother Barnet used to work in the Tower Circus. They do not have any photographs but there may be something in Lancashire Archives. I looked at the reference books for Blackpool FC but found no contemporary photographs to compare with post 1. I have scanned all the reports and can e mail them to you for your friend. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 27 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2018 Brian, this is absolutely brilliant, thank you. I've just checked the Liverpool Echo for that fixture and it confirms the fixture and the preview the day before states that a lot of Merseyside soldiers are expected to attend. The match report describes the day as bright and crisp which seems to fit in too. The result came as a bit of a surprise to the Echo correspondent, who'd been bigging up Blackpool in his preview. I'll get in touch with Thom and let him know what you and the boys have found. I also need to go back to my 1914-15 team picture to try and work out who the player is now we know it isn't Louis (great name) Weller. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsmith Posted 27 April , 2018 Share Posted 27 April , 2018 A clip from the six inch map of 1909-10 if it helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 27 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2018 That definitely helps, for one thing it suggests that the houses on Henry St were new when the photo was taken, and it gives a real sense of how far beyond the ground boundary they were. I was convinced that they overlooked the fence. Foreshortening eh? Who would have believed it. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 30 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 30 April , 2018 I sent all of the findings over to Thom and he is absolutely thrilled with all the detail; he said that "your network of experts puts Inspector Morse to shame". I'd like to add my gratitude to Thom's, I told him that the level of expertise on the forum was amazing and he is suitably amazed. Thanks lads. Pete. P.S. All I've got to do now is work out who the footballer is nearest the camera as it's clearly not Lewis Weller. What I need is a photo recognition thread, we could call it 'Who is This?'. Can't think why nobody has thought of it before.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyredhead Posted 30 April , 2018 Share Posted 30 April , 2018 I,m of no help, but have been following this with interest, at first trying to see if it could be Melwood or Bellefield, then really interested how everyone got it to Blackpool, chuckled at memories of the nit nurse, and I think you must already have this, but just in case http://prints.colorsport.co.uk/everton-1914-15/print/6442877.html so I've been googling EFC history, and Echo, & I know I'm messing this up, but did William Ralph, have any cousins, because though he would only be about 7 this is the nearest I could find to facial recognition https://i2-prod.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article4725957.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/zzdti47696.jpg Thank you it was like an Agatha Christie Whodunit Regards Rusty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 30 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 30 April , 2018 Au contraire Rusty, that's of great help. Both Melwood and Bellefield are I think 60's developments, although Everton had used Bellefield since 1946 when the bomb damage from 1941 was being repaired (at least one bomb landed in the schoolyard of Gwladys St School next door). My friend Tony was convinced it was the Bootle Gasworks recreation ground, just wait until I see him. It's an interesting question about William Ralph Dean (legend has it that he disliked the name Dixie). I know his granddaughter's husband so I might chase that up. The story is that he was taken to Goodison during the Championship winning season of 1914-15 and absolutely fell in love with the place. Incidentally it's the 90th anniversary of his 58th, 59th and 60th goals being scored next Saturday, the 5th. I've got a copy of the full squad picture that is contemporary with the one you posted, so I'll snip another couple of possibilities and post them, since we are in supersleuth mode and on a roll I am confident of getting to the truth (probably Colonel Mustard in the library with the lead pipe)...... Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyredhead Posted 30 April , 2018 Share Posted 30 April , 2018 The Family are face scanning them all now, and have come up with a possible. Brian announced the team in the newspaper with a C Grenyer, and the Team photo has an Alan Grenyer in a suit, looking young for a manager but could be a relation with similar looks, so he was our best guess Can you imagine what that achievement from 90 years ago would mean today, (best not say too much or Harry Kane will claim them) Thanks & Regards Rusty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Regiano Posted 30 April , 2018 Share Posted 30 April , 2018 3 hours ago, Fattyowls said: P.S. All I've got to do now is work out who the footballer is nearest the camera as it's clearly not Lewis Weller. What I need is a photo recognition thread, we could call it 'Who is This?'. Can't think why nobody has thought of it before.......... Pete, as you are sorting out the squad, which one was Francis Jeffers? (Brian's team list in post #17) Reg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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