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Unknown 2nd Life Guards: Harlebeke NBC Plot 17 Row A Grave 17


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There is an Unknown British Soldier of the 2nd Life Guards (Household Cavalry) in the Harlebeke New British Cemetery, Plot 17 Row A Grave 17. I discovered this soldier while I was checking for any men of the Household Cavalry that may have an error in identification similar to the other case with the Royal Horse Guards. That case is at this URL:

 

 

 

In this case we clearly have four (4) men of the 2nd Life Guards that were exhumed from the Kastelhoek German Cemetery located at 28.P.7.1.4.1. Luc DeGrande has probably examined the cases that came from this cemetery. As such, there may be more information available - I will get in touch with Luc. Welcome back to one of our puzzle cases, courtesy of Registration Officer Richard Stiles. He is a common factor in many of these cases.

 

The first two on the list are dated 6 November 1914 so it may be that the next two are also that date. It is worth having a look at the one in 17.A.17 to see if he is one of the two (2) Troopers that is missing that day, or to be a bit more open, for the period November 1st to 10th 1914.

 

There is one (1) Unknown Captain and two (2) Unknown Troopers.

  1. Captain the Hon. Arthur Edward Bruce
  2.  
  3. Trooper Samuel James Stevens # 2905
  4.  
  5. Trooper Sidney James Randall #2898

 

Logic makes it appear that the two unknowns are not the Captain, as identification was made by the clothing, which would have enabled them to distinguish an Officer. As such, there is a good chance this is Stevens and Randall, lying side-by-side. If that was the case, this could be a simple "Special Memorial C - Buried near this spot", then alphabetic order of the names. However, there is a bit more information on one of the two men that may lead to an identification.

 

doc1816367.JPG

 

In the COG-BR we have the man in 17.A.7 with 2 Good Conduct Badges. If we can determine which of the two met that condition, there may be a case. We can also move one more step forward as there is a detail in the Special Exhumation Report that is not on the Concentration Report. The soldier was wearing a "Long White Coat". Personally, I have no idea why someone would be wearing a long white coat, unless it was a Doctor (or could it be a Medic at a Field Hospital?).

 

doc1816252.JPG

 

For interest, but not directly applicable to this case, the one in 17.A.15 that was initially listed as a "Corporal Major" was bearing Chevrons and a Crown, similar to the case linked to this one that resulted in this discovery. It does not say if he had 2 or 3 Chevrons. He was later identified as Corporal of Horse Ellison #2405, so I suspect 3 Chevrons.

 

doc1816250.JPG

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Looks like 2 GC stripes would be 5 years service so which ever man must have had at least that length of service to qualify - post#3

So, if Stevens was only 18 years of age then, if it is these two men, the one with GC stripes must logically be Randall.

 

Craig

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Mel has checked the records for Randall (calc'd 21) and Stevens (rept'd 18) and they are off the list. As I understand it, to have 2 Good Conduct Badges (Chevrons lower left sleeve pointing up) the man would have had to served for at least 5 years and less than 12 years. If minimum attestation age was 18 then we can eliminate anyone who has yet to reach the age of 23 at the time of death. That still leaves a number of candidates but not in insurmountable number.

 

Major Dawnay dinged Trooper Stevens with 5 days C.B.T.? and 5 days pay just 2 days before they were both killed in action. I assume he would have lost a stripe if he had one but maybe not in the 2 day period. Regardless, he was too young to even have 1 Good Conduct Badge.

 

  • Remember also, the question of the "Long White Coat". That has to be significant.
  • How did the man get two Good Conduct Badges in 1914 - that means "carry-over" from pre-war circa 1909 or earlier?

 

Here is the candidate list for August 1914 to the end of the year, with these ones "struck from the list":

  • anyone with a known grave
  • all Officers
  • those who had not knowingly reached the age of 23 at time of death

If I was taking a gamble, my initial bet would be Corporal Dean or Trooper Boyce as they were killed after Major Dawnay and Corporal of Horse Ellison, which is ONLY VALID if the burials were in order of the death. Corporal Dean meets the age required but I do not know the age of Trooper Boyce. On 6 November the 3rd Cavalry Division was near Zwartelein (WD page 37 of 452). On 18 November part of the 2nd Life Guards were in the advanced trenches, which I interpret were at Klein Zillebeke (WD page 42 of 452, page 43 of 452). The war diary reports 3 killed, so I assume that also meant Corporal Blackhouse, listed for death on 19 November 1914 with a known "direct" burial. The late OCtober 1914 period places the men at Zandvoorde Ridge, retiring on the high ground east of Klein Zillebeke (WD page 13 of 452). It was reported one platoon, not in communication with Brigade H.Q. did not retire and was missing. When the one death is reported for 19 October, the regiment was on the Roulers-Menin Road (see map below table).

 

surname forename age death 2nd Life Guards # Cemetery or Memorial in Belgium
DUFF Sir ROBERT (ROBIN) GEORGE VIVIAN 37 16-10-14 Lieutenant   CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY XVII.C.12 
PEMBERTON FRANCIS PERCY CAMPBELL 29 19-10-14 Captain "C"   DADIZEELE NEW BRITISH CEMETERY VI.D.17
COOPER E 20 16-11-14 Trooper '2929' DADIZEELE NEW BRITISH CEMETERY VI.D.20
ELLISON ABRAHAM 31 06-11-14 Corporal of Horse '2405' HARLEBEKE NEW BRITISH CEMETERY XVII.A.15
DAWNAY, DSO, MID The Hon. HUGH 39 06-11-14 Major   HARLEBEKE NEW BRITISH CEMETERY XVII.A.14
BACKHOUSE A H   19-11-14 Corporal '2206' POPERINGHE OLD MILITARY CEMETERY I.M.26
O'NEILL, M.P. The Hon. ARTHUR EDWARD BRUCE 38 06-11-14 Captain "A"   YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
VANDELEUR ALEXANDER MOORE 30 30-10-14 Captain   YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
BULLIVANT ARTHUR JOHN SAMUEL   31-10-14 Corporal '2961' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
DEAN ALBERT CHARLES NEVIL 26 18-11-14 Corporal "D" '2731' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
FORDE PATRICK   31-10-14 Corporal '2671' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
TAYLOR MARTIN GARNER 28 30-10-14 Corporal '2596' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
MORE ROBERT ARTHUR   31-10-14 Corporal of Horse '2420' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
WELLS CLAUDE   31-10-14 Corporal of Horse '2515' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
STEVENSON WALTER CHRISTIE   31-10-14 Corporal of Horse '2460' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
MARCHANT ALBERT VICTOR 28 28-10-14 Lance Corporal '2741' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
DE LAINE ARTHUR EDWARD 18 31-10-14 Trooper "C" '2900' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
HAWKINS WILLIAM 21 29-10-14 Trooper '2843' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
HERRING WILLIAM CHARLES   31-10-14 Trooper '2668' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
KEENE FREDERICK CHARLES 21 30-10-14 Trooper '2782' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
OWENS ERNEST HEALY   31-10-14 Trooper '2451' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
RANDALL SIDNEY JAMES 21 06-11-14 Trooper '2898' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
WACKETT ARTHUR   31-10-14 Trooper '2469' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
MILLS FRANK EDWARD 23 30-10-14 Trooper '2783' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
HAGUES ARTHUR GORDON   30-10-14 Trooper '2867' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
McKELLAR FRANK 25 31-10-14 Trooper '2630' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
STEVENS SAMUEL JAMES 18 06-11-14 Trooper '2905' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
SEYMOUR ALBERT EDWARD 20 31-10-14 Trooper '2939' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
ROUSE MARTIN HERBERT 19 31-10-14 Trooper '2899' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
BLACK DAVID 26 31-10-14 Trooper "C" '2725' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
BOYCE HERBERT GEORGE   18-11-14 Trooper '2810' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
BRYCE JOHN 26 19-10-14 Trooper "D" '2633' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
GOULDING CECIL RUFUS 26 31-10-14 Trooper '2535'

YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

 

I have a Google Map showing the general location of the 3rd Cavalry Brigade in the October-November period from the report on the Royal Horse Guards. It helps place the general areas to see if the men were in similar locations: (Roulers is Roeselare in the upper right). That would eliminate Trooper Bryce on 19 October 1914, on the Roulers-Menin Road. Note that this YELLOW MARKER is for the remains in the other topic about the Royal Horse Guards.

 

4bw4kluru555dp06g.jpg

Edited by laughton
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As I understand it, to have 2 Good Conduct Badges (Chevrons lower left sleeve pointing up) the man would have had to served for at least 5 years and less than 12 years. If minimum attestation age was 18 then we can eliminate anyone who has yet to reach the age of 23 at the time of death. That still leaves a number of candidates but not in insurmountable number.

 

 

A man/boy could enlist from age 14 - whether or not service under 18 counted for the good conduct or not I don't know but that may need double-checked. Also got to be careful over age and length of service - one does not always equal the other.
 

Craig

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ss002d6252
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Looking at Paul's list of numbers it only goes up to 1908 but for 5 years service by mid 1914 you can probably rule out any man who enlisted past mid 1909 so probably about #2800 ish or less would be a safe bet.
http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/2nd-life-guards-1881-1908.html
 

As is typical however both Dean and Boyce lie right on the cusp of this.

 

EDIT:
Records had been indexed as dating from 1856 for some odd reason... Interestingly the records also give a rough place of death.

#2810 Boyce's records survive - he attested 8  Dec 1911.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo400%2f94%2f2810%2f0002&parentid=gbm%2fwo400%2f94%2f003683

image.png.3fd0e666f0532d30a3714aa4b8b0c9fc.png

#2731 Deans's records survive - he attested 4 July 1910.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM/WO400/105/2731/0001&parentid=GBM/WO400/105/004141

image.png.1bc29236be87c5e3eaf42d0ea313c6b3.png

 


Craig

Edited by ss002d6252
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From a quick scan of the service records in the list above:
 

Most of the men had enlisted on 3 years service with the colours so I don't believe reserve service counted for the GC etc so it must have been a man who chose to continue on after his 3 years with the colours. Something in the back of my mind says Sergeants (and equivalent) and above did not wear he GC badges at their rank so I thin we could rule out Corporal of Horse and above to shorten the possibilities.

Name, Enlistment, Notes

Bullivant    18 Aug 1914    Not enough service
Forde        26 Mar 1906    Only 1 GC
Taylor        08 Apr 1905    6ft 3 3/8", Only 1 GC
More        13 Jan 1904    1 GC
Wells        12 Jan 1906    1 GC
Stevenson    26 Nov 1914    1 GC
Marchant    05 Aug 1902    2 GC, only 5ft 7"    
image.png.5b917cfd5c5b17455ad22f30929e76e5.png
Herring        18 Jan 1909    No GC
Owens        10 Oct 1904    1 GC
Wackett        07 Jan 1905    1 GC
Mills        01 May 1911    No GC
Hagues        01 Feb 1911    Trans from Grenadier Guards. Cavalry records do not survive to confirm if any GC.
McKellar    06 Jul 1908    No GC
Black        12 Jun 1905    Trans from Gord Highlanders. 1GC. 5ft 10 1/4"
Bryce        31 Jul 1908    Trans from 14th Hussars. No GC
Goulding    20 Mar 1906    No GC

 

Craig

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This is what I have for the Kastelhoek German Cemetery:

It was created in 1916 to concentrate the fieldgraves from the area, the same was done in other area's and new cemeteries were created: Kruiseke GMC, Koelenberg Forest etc...

The graves before 1916 are therefore not in order of death due to this concentration, they were reburied as they were found in their original graves, this is probably also the reason why there are sometimes single graves and graves with 2 or more as in this case for grave 59.

 

6 Commonwealth soldiers were moved to Harlebeke as shown in post #1.

2 to Oosttaverne: http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2152696.JPG

 

5 to Sanctuary Wood: http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2154316.JPG

 

and one grave could not be found: http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc1816012.JPG

 

I have done some research for a Life Guards soldier that died in early October 1914 and that was a difficult exercise with conflicting dates of death (CWGC vs War diary, civilian and German reports). There were also soldiers from other regiments (Dragoon Guards) attached to the Life Guards to complicate it.

 

Hope this helps,

Luc.

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A man/boy could enlist from age 14 - whether or not service under 18 counted for the good conduct or not I don't know but that may need double-checked. Also got to be careful over age and length of service - one does not always equal the other.

 

Craig et al - this document appears to tell us more about the Good Conduct Badges. You may already have this on file but I had not read it previously.

 

The Good Conduct Badge of the British Armed Services

D E Langley

https://rmhistorical.com/files/content/Good Conduct Badges.pdf

  • Most of this article is based on the RWs, because not all the intermediate amendments can be reliably traced. Where a source used is not a Warrant this is stated.
  • The RW 1866 published the shorter list and also confirmed acceleration by two years for the last three badges for continuous good conduct. Again, soldiers under sergeant were eligible, and those junior to corporal of the Household Cavalry were added.
  • The next RW (1870) makes yet another change, to 2, 6, 12, 18,23 and 28, with acceleration by two years for the last three badges. These periods remained virtually unchanged until near-modem times, but there are suggestions that the left sleeve became the preferred one c. 1875.
  • To return to the regulars, the warrant of 1898 made an important provision for those rejoining the colours from the Reserve (as, for example, in war): for the first time 'regard shall be had to the entries in his regimental defaulter sheet during his service in the reserve'. The meaning is not clear, but it can be read as counting good conduct during reserve service in full. In 1914 those soldiers recalled to the colours retained (at least) their substantive rank and conduct badges accrued with the colours.
  • Thus the next Warrant, of 1906, continued to call the badge 'a high distinction' for those under the rank of corporal, or equivalent, but removed the id per day per badge from all except non-Europeans. The periods for Europeans were 2, 5 (a change), 12, 18, 23 and 28 years, with the usual proviso for earlier qualification for later badges.
  • The next warrant, 1907, stated that service in the Reserve would not count, but changed little else, as did those of 1913 and 1914.

From this, it appears that we can exclude Corporals as well as Corporals of Horse.

 

I thought we should also look at what it says in the King's Regulations & Orders, but I was not able to find any direct references to how and when they are awarded.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044048604474;view=1up;seq=19;size=125

 

There is a reference to the "Good Conduct Medal" in Section 1748:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044048604474;view=1up;seq=371

 

Quote

This is what I have for the Kastelhoek German Cemetery:

It was created in 1916 to concentrate the fieldgraves from the area

 

I suspected that Luc had already done this research! That means the thought that the graves in 16 and 17 might be "date related" to graves 14 and 15 is out. We would need to know where the remains were prior to their concentration into Kastelhoek (28.P.7.a). The general area is correct as to where the 2nd Life Guards were at the time, with Klein Zillebeke (28.I.36.b) and Zandvoorde (28.P.3.a) being approximately 2.200 yards to the northwest and northeast respectively. At present I do not know if this is the only time that the Life Guards were in this area of Belgium, but that can be determined. A member familiar with that Regiment may already know the answer? I suspect the answer is YES, since we do know that the exhumation report states the death as having occurred in 1914 (note that was not transferred to the COG-BR nor was the reference to the white coat). The list I produced had all the loses from August 4th to December 31st 1914 so I there are no other candidates (unless as Luc suggests - those that were attached).

 

Craig - is there anything in Marchant's service record that might explain the white coat? He appears to be the only one left on the list with confirmed 2 Good Conduct Badges, but as you noted, we don't know the status of Trooper Hagues and you did not give the status of Trooper Boyce.

 

surname forename age death 2nd Life Guards # GC Status
MARCHANT ALBERT VICTOR 28 28-10-14 Lance Corporal '2741' 2
HERRING WILLIAM CHARLES   31-10-14 Trooper '2668' 0
OWENS ERNEST HEALY   31-10-14 Trooper '2451' 1
WACKETT ARTHUR   31-10-14 Trooper '2469' 1
MILLS FRANK EDWARD 23 30-10-14 Trooper '2783' 0
HAGUES ARTHUR GORDON   30-10-14 Trooper '2867' ?
McKELLAR FRANK 25 31-10-14 Trooper '2630' 0
BLACK DAVID 26 31-10-14 Trooper '2725' 1
BOYCE HERBERT GEORGE   18-11-14 Trooper '2810'  
BRYCE JOHN 26 19-10-14 Trooper '2633' 0
GOULDING CECIL RUFUS 26 31-10-14 Trooper '2535' 0

 

The list I produced had all the losses from August 4th to December 31st 1914 so I there are no other candidates (unless as Luc suggests - those that were attached). If there were attachments from within the Division that would be the "3rd Dragoon Guards (Prince of Wales' Own)", in the 6th Brigade. Using the CWGC database, I have yet to find any "attached" and "deceased" from within the 3rd Cavalry Division (1st Life Guards, 3rd Dragoon Guards, Royal Horse Guards, North Somerset Yeomanry, Leicestershire Yeomanry, Essex Yeomanry, 10th Hussars).

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I can't see any record of any GC badges for Boyce.

In respect of Hagues the Guards museum may retain a copy of the service record for him and this may add more information.

Craig

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In respect of Marchant nothing jumps out at me regarding the white coat - perhaps it may be better opening a specific thread just on that as someone may know something in regards to the cavalry.

Just notice that one page of his record states 5ft 7" but other pages state 5ft 11" so he's close to the height recorded by the CWGC.

Craig

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I don't have ancestry but bought the war diary for the 2nd Life Guards a while ago.

PETERSEN, WILLIAM SINCLAIR is listed in the war diary: died 6/11/1914 , he was with the Royal Horse Artillery, attd. 2nd Life Guards. He does have a known grave.

 

A search on CWGC with 2nd Life Guards as secondary regiment and listed on the Menin Gate from 1 October 1914 till December 1918 has 20 results:

 

ADAMS W S 31/10/1914 Private 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own)
DAWES T R 31/10/1914 Private 3rd Dragoon Guards (Prince of Wales' Own)
DOCKERAY R 31/10/1914 Private 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own)
JORDAN A A 31/10/1914 Private 16th (The Queen's) Lancers
KITCHEN W 31/10/1914 Private 16th (The Queen's) Lancers
LEA G E 31/10/1914 Private 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own)
MUDD S G 31/10/1914 Private 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own)
PAYNE H A 31/10/1914 Lance Corporal 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own)
WATKEN A I 31/10/1914 Private 3rd Dragoon Guards (Prince of Wales' Own)
ANSTRUTHER J A St. C 30/10/1914 Lieutenant 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers)
HUGHES B 30/10/1914 Private 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own)
GREINER C W H 29/10/1914 Private 16th (The Queen's) Lancers
NIELD W 29/10/1914 Lance Corporal 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own)
MEAD F 28/10/1914 Private 16th (The Queen's) Lancers
WHITE A H 28/10/1914 Private 3rd Dragoon Guards (Prince of Wales' Own)
PRATT J B 19/10/1914 Private 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own)
ORAM G 14/05/1915 Private 18th (Queen Mary's Own) Hussars
HANCOCK J 13/05/1915 Private 3rd Dragoon Guards (Prince of Wales' Own)
MOORE J 13/05/1915 Lance Corporal 13th Hussars
O'BRIEN P 13/05/1915 Private 21st (Empress of India's) Lancers

 

It will be very difficult to prove who is in that grave (IMHO) unless you can find a German  burial list for that cemetery.

Checking all the names at ICRC is an option but takes a lot of time.

 

For the long white coat: I remember reading somewhere that these horseman were very impressive to the local population when they arrived in this area during wintertime on their horses with long overcoats, but don't know if it were the British or German Uhlan's.

However, my memory could play tricks and think of King Arthur and his knights............. :huh:

 

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As far as I know, there is no old (wartime German made) burial list any more for this cemetery.

 

Jan

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14 hours ago, LDT006 said:

A search on CWGC with 2nd Life Guards as secondary regiment

 

Luc:

 

Thanks for that tip!

 

I was not aware of that process and it does highlight a flaw in the system that I have missed for years. I regularly download the database from a CWGC search and was not aware that if there was a "secondary regiment" involved, that does not show in the search results.

 

As your list shows, Alber Watken was attached to the 2nd Lifeguards from the 3rd Dragoon Guards, however if you download the database where his name shows all you get is:

 

WATKEN ALBERT ISAACA I 37 31-10-14 Private 3rd Dragoon Guards (Prince of Wales' Own) '3741' YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL Panel 3. Son of Mrs. May Ann Watken; husband of Rose Agnes Watken, of 6, Brewery Terrace, Aberbeeg, Newport, Mon.

 

What shows directly for the man if searched as an individual is:

PrivateWATKEN, ALBERT ISAAC

Service Number 3741

Died 31/10/1914

Aged 37

3rd Dragoon Guards (Prince of Wales' Own)

attd. 
2nd Life Guards

Son of Mrs. May Ann Watken; husband of Rose Agnes Watken, of 6, Brewery Terrace, Aberbeeg, Newport, Mon.

 

I am going to ask Andrew why this happens, ask if there are other items that are not included, and whether they can change the system to include all the information.

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Kevin:

 

Can you post your questions or issues about the 2nd Life Guards case here please.

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

 

Edit: Or if it is concerning the Long White Coat there is a topic here as suggested by Craig: 

 

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On 25-4-2018 at 13:23, laughton said:

I was not aware of that process and it does highlight a flaw in the system that I have missed for years. I regularly download the database from a CWGC search and was not aware that if there was a "secondary regiment" involved, that does not show in the search results.

 

Oops, I assumed that this process was widely known.

It is needed to do 2 searches to find all the men of a certain regiment that died in any given period of time.

 

Also bear in mind that the CWGC data is not always complete, I have seen several records where the "attd. xxxx" is not shown at CWGC.

Lieutenant DONE, ROBERT 15th Bn. Cheshire Regiment was attached to the 1st/7th Bn. Cheshire Regiment at the time of his death.

He is listed as died in the 1st/7th war diary and several documents in his service record have "1/7th" also.

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It probably was well known and I was probably told. I knew about the "secondary regiment" part but I had not noticed that the "download" function to a CSV file does not give all the data that is actually in the system.

 

I have heard back from the CWGC and they were not aware that this column was missing in the downloads. They are checking into it further to see what can be done.

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Luc:

 

Very interesting - particularly the "2nd Royal Horse Guards". Private Arrowsmith must be a "glitch", unless they are referring to the 2nd squadron of the regiment that went over in October 1914. I am no expert on British units but the LLT appears to tell that story. The big difference may be those that were in the Household Battalion, which was not back in Belgium until 3rd Ypres / Passchendaele.

 

Thanks for highlighting this issue!

Richard

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Richard,

 

please see my edited post above :(

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Not to worry about that Luc!

I got sucked in on the NUMERALS thingie and I should have known better. The Canadian and British terminology is quite different. Kevin pointed out the error and that has been corrected.

 

Your post on the SECONDARY REGIMENT is the most important item, partiularly since the CWGC was not aware. Now we can fix the system, and in the meantime I know to run BOTH searches.

 

My father always told me two (2) things:

  1. Don't worry son, you learn from your mistakes.
  2. Son, sometimes I think you are learning too much!

Most of us here are interested family members of greatwar veterans who are trying to do what we can to keep the flame alive, knowing that we just might be the last generation to care enough to carry out the research.

 

I am quite comfortable with the CEF but a real novice when it comes to the BEF. I will probably become the king of errors!

 

Cheers from Canada, where Spring has finally arrived! The turkey is on the BBQ!!

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Another issue which has not been discussed is the disbanding of battalions and if these men were sent to a new regiment were they to retain their original shoulder titles. In 1918 the 1/1st North Somerset Yeomanry were broken up with the men being divided between the three regiments of the 6th Cavalry Brigade. These were the 1st ( Royal ) Dragoons, 3rd Dragoon Guards and the 10th Hussars.

In 2017 I presented a case to the CWGC regarding the grave of an unidentified Corporal from the 10th Hussars with the evidence indicating that these are the remains of Corporal T. Stannage. The Vis-en-Artois Memorial records that he is the only man from this regiment without a recorded place of burial within the appropriate region.However during a walk through a cemetery in this same area I came across the grave of another unidentified man from the 10th Hussars whose remains were recovered from the same location as Stannage. The only realistic candidate which I could locate among the missing was 165592 Private Frank Blacker who is still documented as serving with the North Somerset Yeomanry although this regiment was disbanded six months before his death. 

There are substantial errors through the system and simply excepting what is recorded on memorials will create another Kipling case.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

It would appear that the CWGC has modified the system based on the submission about the missing SECONDARY REGIMENT. I did a different search this morning and the new column now appears. The database also has a new FIRST COLUMN call "id", however I do not yet know what that is? Perhaps that is a CWGC internal file code?

 

You still must do two (2) searches, as you can not use the primary and secondary regiment in the same search. There is no "either/or" option in the search.

 

This is how Luc's search would appear today (some columns removed):

 

id surname initials death rank regiment secondary_regiment #
924927 ADAMS W S 31-10-14 Private 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own) 2nd Life Guards '6514'
925521 ANSTRUTHER J A St. C 30-10-14 Lieutenant 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers) 2nd Life Guards  
910223 DAWES T R 31-10-14 Private 3rd Dragoon Guards (Prince of Wales' Own) 2nd Life Guards '5315'
1610188 DOCKERAY R 31-10-14 Private 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own) 2nd Life Guards '6083'
907848 GREINER C W H 29-10-14 Private 16th (The Queen's) Lancers 2nd Life Guards '4192'
908719 HANCOCK J 13-05-15 Private 3rd Dragoon Guards (Prince of Wales' Own) 2nd Life Guards '5370'
1615270 HUGHES B 30-10-14 Private 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own) 2nd Life Guards '6306'
1616926 JORDAN A A 31-10-14 Private 16th (The Queen's) Lancers 2nd Life Guards '4503'
1617791 KITCHEN W 31-10-14 Private 16th (The Queen's) Lancers 2nd Life Guards '3839'
1618505 LEA G E 31-10-14 Private 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own) 2nd Life Guards '6481'
906490 MEAD F 28-10-14 Private 16th (The Queen's) Lancers 2nd Life Guards '3861'
907313 MOORE J 13-05-15 Lance Corporal 13th Hussars 2nd Life Guards '7308'
918171 MUDD S G 31-10-14 Private 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own) 2nd Life Guards '875'
918950 NIELD W 29-10-14 Lance Corporal 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own) 2nd Life Guards '6454'
919265 O'BRIEN P 13-05-15 Private 21st (Empress of India's) Lancers 2nd Life Guards '955'
1622857 ORAM G 14-05-15 Private 18th (Queen Mary's Own) Hussars 2nd Life Guards '23722'
1623642 PAYNE H A 31-10-14 Lance Corporal 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own) 2nd Life Guards '6523'
1624798 PRATT J B 19-10-14 Private 17th Lancers (Duke of Cambridge's Own) 2nd Life Guards '6493'
913116 WATKEN A I 31-10-14 Private 3rd Dragoon Guards (Prince of Wales' Own) 2nd Life Guards '3741'
910581 WHITE A H 28-10-14 Private 3rd Dragoon Guards (Prince of Wales' Own) 2nd Life Guards '4960'

 

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  • 4 months later...

 

Based on the evidence I have presented on CoH 2216 Dean here 

This now casts a doubt over the identity of the soldier buried in CoH 2405 Ellison's grave at Harlebeke NBC. Ellison was identified by 'chevrons and crown' but the amount of chevrons is not noted, the crucial word in identification here is 'Corporal'. The CoG report initially states 'Corporal Major' and the Special Exhumation report states 'Corporals Chevrons' so it is my belief the soldier was found with two chevrons. Richard Stiles believing the rank of Corporal Major does not exist amends the the rank to 'Corporal of Horse' and all evidence that he has access to at the time suggests that it can only be one man CoH 2405 Ellison, indeed all evidence today would suggest the same, but I believe the soldier found was a Corporal of the 2nd Life Guards and not a Corporal of Horse. Early suggestion would point to Corporal 2731 Dean (not to be confused with CoH 2216 Dean). My assumption here relates to the GRU recovering 2 chevrons (Corporal) with the remains, had they found 3 chevrons would the CoG report not have stated Sergeant Major? and the Special  Exhumation report stated 'Sergeants chevrons? 

Edited by jay dubaya
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