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wmfinch

Type 80 Fuze and 4.5 inch Howitzer?.

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wmfinch

Hello All,  

 

i have aver discovered that type 80 time and percussion fuzes were commonly used with 18 pounder Shrapnel shells, but could they have also been used with 4.5 inch Howitzer Shrapnel shells?

 

I have an unfired type 106 fuze which fits perfectly into my 4.5 inch Howitzer High Explosive shell (with adaptor ring) and the type 80 fuze also fits, albeit very tightly (perhaps due to expansion of the metal after firing).

 

It would be great to know either way.

 

With grateful thanks,

 

Wayne

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14276265

4.5-inch Howitzer Shrapnel used No.82 T&P fuze, and later No.86.

 

For HE, the initial lyddite-filled shell used No.17 MkIII direct action. Later Amatol-filled shell used No.100 fuze with No.1 gaine.

 

A time fuze would not be used in an HE shell unless for anti-aircraft purposes and that would not happen with a 4.5 Howitzer. Without getting too pedantic, topping off a 4.5" HE shell with a No.106 fuze is fine for display.

 

 

 

265

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by 14276265

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wmfinch

Ah thank you once again '265'.

 

My Grandfather was involved in a V.C. action on 30th Nov 1917, and the report by the Battery Commander states that H.E. Shells were fired using open sights with No 106 fuzes.  On that basis, I'm pretty confident that my 4.5 inch Howitzer H.E. Shell and No 106 Fuze is historically accurate.

 

This is the type 80 fuze I bought.....at least that's what I think it is!  Now I'm hoping it is a type 82 fuze!  Please can you confirm?

 

V/R

 

Wayne

image.jpg

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14276265

Throughout 1917 use of the direct action No.106 was more widespread, replacing the No.17 and No.44 direct action fuzes used in the first years of the war. I'm glad to hear of an after-action report confirming the use with 4.5-inch HE, so thank you for that. In an open sights action over (I assume) flat terrain, the gun crews might have preferred graze action fuze such as the No.100 and its ilk, but if the No.106 was all there was to hand they clearly used them to effect.

 

The fuze you show is a No.80. The No.82 was graduated to 40 seconds, and the timing powder train was initiated by the rotation of the shell firing a detonator pellet. The No.80 was initiated by the set-back of an axial detonator pellet, and was used in higher velocity ammunition such as the 18pr. The lower velocity, and ability to use different charges, in the 4.5 howitzer meant the set-back ignition of the powder train was not always guaranteed, so hence the use of the rotation forces.

 

The functioning of the No.82 should become clear by perusing the attached drawing.

 

 

 

265

No.82.JPG

Edited by 14276265

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wmfinch

I am amazed and impressed at your in depth knowledge '265'.  I am also very grateful.

 

This painting by David Rowlands was commissioned by the Royal Artillery to commemorate the 100th anniversary of Sergeant Cyril E Gourley winning the V.C.  My Grandfather won the M.M. fighting alongside him at Little Priel Farm during the German Counter Attack on 30th Nov 1917, Battle of Cambrai.

 

12 men in total were decorated for their actions in keeping a 4.5 inch Howitzer firing in a forward position, and Liverpool Library has all of the 55th West Lancashire Division records, including Major John Hudson's report which led to the decorations.  It is this report that the 106 fuze is mentioned.

 

Apart from some of the men, the painting depicts H.E. and Shrapnel shells and I'm trying to collect artefacts that are historically correct for this action,  hence my questions.  Looks like I need to find a No. 82 Fuze next!

 

On the plus side, my Grandfather was one of the Gunners who fired a 101 salute in Cologne on the day the Treaty of Versailles was signed.  They used 18 pounders that day, albeit with blanks.  At least he had some experience with 18 pounders, so the type 80 fuze will stay on my collection.

 

Once again, I thank you sincerely.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

 

 

image.jpg

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14276265

Thanks for the scan of the painting and the accompanying information; it has some good technical detail as regards the gun and the ammunition. The correct markings on the ammunition show Shrapnel (black with red bands) and HE (yellow ochre with red and green bands), and the artist has faithfully captured the No.106 fuze on the latter. A particularly good detail is the cartridges being readied in the background, still with their protective leather board lids which were only removed immediately prior to placement in the gun breach.

 

Attached is a drawing of the cartridge (albeit MkI) from the Handbook of the 4.5-inch QF Howitzer.

 

Also for interest a couple of photos of the 4.5 that used to be on display in Firepower Museum at Woolwich (until it closed a little while back). The HE round to the right of the howitzer is furnished with a No.106 fuze.

 

 

 

265

4.5 cart.JPG

4.5_1 Firepower Museum.JPG

4.5_2 Firepower Museum.JPG

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wmfinch

Hello '265'

 

That's great...many thanks.  I have 3 x 4.5 inch Howitzer Cartridge Cases (Mark 2), so a schematic is really good to have.  I know Paul Evans from the old Firepower Museum and he kindly showed me round that Howitzer.  Hopefully it will come out of 'hibernation' soon!  I have also met the man who restored it and he has another one for sale at approx £80k......if only!

 

Hope you don't mind, but I also have a 101 Mark 2 E fuze with a gaine.  It has all sorts of markings on it which I haven't even tried to get to grips with yet.  Perhaps I could PM you shortly for your opinions?

 

All the best,

 

Wayne

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RobertBr

Great picture and information about the 4.5 QF.

 

Bob

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wmfinch

Hello All,

 

I took part in my local WW1 themed Fayre yesterday, displaying many of my Items including my 4.5 inch Howitzer artefacts on a voluntary basis.  Surprisingly, I ended up part exchanging the type 80 Fuze mentioned above, for this one, which I considered to be in better condition overall.  The new owner of the old one was very appreciative of the information I had written up about it, which was largely thanks to '265'.  In other words, the info was certainly not wasted.

 

So here comes the inevitable question...please can you help me with details of my 'new' one (which I promise to try and keep)!

 

The top has VS 507  U.IVA 5/17 stamped on it.

 

The underneath has VSM      ?.0.7 with a small square stamp slightly above     G(?) War Dept Arrow   5/17     80IVA    stamped on it.

 

I am assuming it is another type 80 Fuze (I will find a type 82 Fuze one day), from the 80 IVA marking and it was made in May 1917, but an additional question is why did different manufacturers use different metals for the cap?

 

As always, I will be very grateful for information.

 

V/R

 

Wayne

 

 

 

 

 

 

image.jpg

image.jpg

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14276265

Wayne,

 

It is a No.80 MkIVA T&P fuze, and is a good swap for the one you parted with. The MkIVA was not issued in great numbers, and is not common today.

 

The No.80 was a Friedrich Krupp A.G. design, initially made completely of aluminium except for the steel core. As modifications were made and bits of brass added, the Mark numbers increased. The MkIV was aluminium with a brass outer ring screwed on to the body flange to allow a brass waterproofing cover to be soldered down. The MkIVA was the MkIV with brass time rings.

 

The fuze shown was made by Vickers Ltd (VSM being the retained pre-1911 monogram of Vickers, Sons and Maxim). 507 is the filled Lot number, and May 1917 is the filling date. There are various inspection/acceptance marks, but unfortunately the base plug, onto which the stamps would continue, is missing. Often the Lot number was stamped on the base ring, with the maker's monogram and date, and the 07 might be that - not sure why it is not the full 507. It is interesting that the square over-stamped on the 07 seems to include part of the monogram of the Gramophone Company - a stylus on a disc. Without the base plug it becomes too subjective to say more.

 

 

 

265

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wmfinch

Hello '265'

 

You never cease to amaze me with your knowledge for which I am very grateful.

 

One day I will find a type 82 Fuze, but in the meantime, I will write up your valued information on this one.

 

With thanks once again,

 

Wayne

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battle of loos

good evening,

 

great information about the 4.5 howitzer.

 

Sunday, I post my wood box fort the 4.5 Cartridge.

 

regards

 

michel

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wmfinch

Looking forward to seeing the photo!

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battle of loos

good Morning,

 

Here are the pictures of my ammunition box for 4.5 Howitze :

 

387575762_caisse4.5Howitzer-131017(1).JPG.1a4b8847ce3e22ec54215317e5549d3e.JPG487557942_caisse4.5Howitzer-131017(4).JPG.de6c90f62ea45dabad16273b62155e1d.JPG471191926_caisse4.5Howitzer-131017(3).JPG.93171c258e52eb0b9d154a3e1fe920e3.JPG1770436587_caisse4.5Howitzer-131017(5).JPG.593c5634e0942d036570ec2e50d08049.JPG1896720875_caisse4.5Howitzer-131017(2).JPG.d1943e9d39e503cd8b79b7699ec411ac.JPG724845769_caisse4.5Howitzer-131017(6).JPG.a6102e4a4fad218ba32f13b51b598f88.JPG

 

If you have information about the different markings.
It is dated 1917.

 

Thank you for your answers.

 

regards

 

michel

Edited by battle of loos

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Starshell

Superb 4.5" box, many thanks for showing, and a rare survivor. I have a few originals (9.2" charge box and 7.6cm MW crates) and build replicas from the originals. Is there any chance I might be able to contact you with a view to gather dimensions to be able to make a replica of your box? I'm new to the site and can't yet PM you for some reason.

Many thanks!

Regards,

Dylan

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