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Remembered Today:

WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION


zuluwar2006

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Sorry but You dont understand basics of bayonet design, how were bayonet attached on rifles ?, as talking still about 

"what I do not understand is your replacing cross guards??

 

-as mentioned before Werder 69, Gras ,Chassepot, Werndl all have the locking lug on barell!! so the distance between barell ring and handle is 0 mm !!

- prussian PFM 1871 or Gew88 rifles has bayonet locking lug on front ring of buttstock, so the barell ring on crossguard must be higher above the handle minimum about 6mm !!!

- thats the reason why You should modify a Gras or Chassepot or Werder bayonets for rifles like Gew.71 or other similar rifles that are equiped with bayonets with higher positioned barell ring on crossguard. One way of modification is using of old crossguard (located on barell) but removing material on spine of handle in locking bar area, but this conversion is weakness for holding on rifle

 

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Edited by AndyBsk
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So my last post about this, Your piece is a bavarian PFM1871 ,Type III as mentioned by Ruediger

-it was produced for M1869 apt.rifle, also with longer stepped bar in handle, and crossguard with lower positioned ring directly on handle (type I. as they dont exist, as 99,9% were reworked to type II)

-1887 was the piece reworked to Gew.71 and Gew.71/84 configuration with replacing of older crossguard with new crossguard,that have barell ring positioned 6mm above handle!! (type II)

-1890 post it were drilled the backside of ring, because the lock distance of Gew.88 is longer about 1-2 mm as the Gew.71 old rifles (type III)

-bavarian PFM1871 are certainly rare, but Your Type III is the most common of them.

 

Edited by AndyBsk
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I thought you lot would be the most knowledgeable about this(after stalking this thread for months!)

 

One of my friends who lives in America, came across these bayonets and asked me about them, my only thought was they looked like M95 bayonets or something similar and not being very knowledgeable on these things I thought it for the best I asked the experts!

 

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Most German states, unified 1872 adopted the M71 rifle, you (Andy) say Bavaria re-started production of M69 Werder with new M71 barrels in 1876, four years after everyone else was producing the M71? (I no have Franz R. ) book with me to read it.. The M69 was being sold off surplus in 1883.

 

on the M69art. You never read or Franz no mention the shorter, weaker chambers had a lot of “ high pressure “ problems with the higher powder  loads of the M71 patrons ?I have read of these high pressure problems from several sources now. Again, I no able read Franz book right now to see what you are reading

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Hello there Jools

Is you could post your own post on these, you would get more responses, They may be German made  but with high bridge/ muzzle ring, look Austrian to me, type 95?

try your own thread and a lot more people will get curious and look

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Hey AndyBsk, you say the Bavarian Gew88 conversion is called a type 3? Say it the most COMMON? Have you ever seen any?Here in U.S.A., I have only seen 3 in 29 years.   There must be more in Europe and maybe the U.K., All I can really go by is here in America and on the Web of what is rare and how rare, Again, back to my pic with the 2 PFM muzzle ring pic, so the one with standard cross guard, would that be a Bav. S71PFM Type 2?

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1875 3389 Gendarmerie short rifles sub contract from Amberg to Francotte we’re finished,these short rifles, 21.5 inch barrels were delivered. In 1882, 698 of these short rifles , some made in Liege were modified to adapt to use a bayonet lug to carry a variant of the S71 “ type” Hirschfanger for the Genzschutwache ( border police) that some claim was used through out the Great War 

This is the latest dates I could find on Werder, but this does not concern the S71PFM Bavarian

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There are 2x Chilean M1895 bayonets in  photos od answer 503.

Edited by AndyBsk
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"Die Gesamtzahl aller zwischen 1869 und 1873 hergestellten Werdergewehre wird auf etwa 127.000 Stück geschätzt."

 

Your text: "Most German states, unified 1872 adopted the M71 rifle, you (Andy) say Bavaria re-started production of M69 Werder with new M71 barrels in 1876, four years after everyone else was producing the M71? (I no have Franz R. ) book with me to read it.. The M69 was being sold off surplus in 1883."

Offcoarse Bavaria didnt accept M1871 in 1872, because they aquired new M1869 rifles in same period.

 

You dont understand as You dont read the previous posts, the Werder69 rifles were delivered prior end 1873, so the old modells were totall delivered in end of 1873, in the Bavaria were in year 1874 zero M1871 rifles accepted, You believe that they would new rifles (one year old) saled out because of new M1871  were accepted in other states??? And who payed someone like removing 125000 rifles after 2 or 3 years? 

Economical nonsense.

Easy way they rechambered the chamber in 1875/6 to new Mauser cartridge as the powder is black, no extra pressure on steel barells. The change is 11,5x50R to 11.15x60R, which was proper proofed and accepted and done by official refurbishments autorities. 

Ruediger states the crossguards were changed 1887 to M71 standarts, so Your info about sale of M1869 rifles  in 1883 must be partly wrong, or is only for infantry rifles but not for the pioneers used rifles M1869apt. 

About rarity i already say that the bavarian PFM 1871 is rare, but the most were refurbished for Gew88, as is visible here by Yours and Zulus 2 samples which are type III. I dont saw prior this time any origin old bayonet for M1869 rifle also Type I, or the newer one bavarian PFM1871 post 1898 as Type IV. 

Believe what You will, i answered because i have the vol.IV of excellent Ruediger book, i only interpreted the text there. 

To about my german and translate of Ruediger text i speak german very good , much more better as my english is, i live 10km of border to austria, i known german since my 5 year, as my grand grand mother was from Wienna, we speak always german at home.

Certainly You should read the books of Franz Ruediger!!

Edited by AndyBsk
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A VERY interesting discussion between you two there, Andy and Steve, both of whom I know to be experienced collectors. IF I have time, I will try to translate into English the relevant Rudiger pages.

 

Steve, you have some of his books, so you will know he is a details man, and when it come to using original archives I trust him - but you have some that 'don't fit the regulations'. Andy, all who know you from GBF will know you have  probably handled more bayonets of all kinds than most of us "have had hot dinners", as the saying goes, and so at some point I really should try to get Rudiger into English - Andy's German is perfect, but as he admits it is idiomatic (:rolleyes:) - not to worry Andy as my grasp of the other languages I 'know' (German, French, and Spanish!) is certainly not perfect!  

 

Julian

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THIS IS AN EXTREMELY RARE MODIFICATION WITH A non FULL LENGHT BLADE

AUSTRIAN MODEL 1870 BAYONET Werndl, 

CONVERTED TO FIT THE GEWEHR 88 RIFLE. 

Extremely rare modification with wooden grips, is very very rare to see such a model, as most converted Austrian bayonets, are with chequered leather grips. 

BACK OF THE HILT MACHINED IN ONE STEP 2 MM DEEP FOR 37 MM. 

Full muzzle ring. The ring brushed with a steel tube to fit the Gewehr 88.

Single edge yatagan blade with square fullers. 

Similar to the described model EB 84

NUMBER 670 IN ROY WILLIAMS BOOK FOR ERSATZ BAYONETS.

The model with wooden grips is totally converted by the Germans during ww1. If you compare the model with leather grips and with the wooden grips, you can see that the wooden grips are held by 2 big rivets. The one is at the same place to held the leaf spring. But is bigger. 

Regards

D. 

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Edited by zuluwar2006
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Three (3) more examples of Austrian ersatz bayonets from my collection.  

The one is full lengthed 1870 bayonet with leather grips, extremely rare. 

From the 2 others, one has wooden grips and the third leather grips and those are model 1870 but with shorter blade. 

Regards

D. 5ad24e25a3cc7_IMG_39251.JPG.c1f1702a8b96dc792454936d3835bc79.JPG5ad24e37b788a_IMG_39261.JPG.2cc0629f73f08ac5b2610ec096dbb3e6.JPG5ad24e4ab18f7_IMG_39271.JPG.350d2281d92b812f66413f3e3144be42.JPG5ad24e5c3afaf_IMG_39291.JPG.a99070255e634eb1f203d7bc8676bdc1.JPG5ad24e71e074e_IMG_39281.JPG.b6ef2397368cc991f869726304b0454c.JPG658510993_20180602_1831051.jpg.0c1f1592c6130c88f8f3d5c722b0de8e.jpg1865864024_20180602_1831171.jpg.2f077ba1b866a3d060165fdf25aeb985.jpg590531405_20180707_2152371.jpg.198657169d1e8040c13391e1892ae37e.jpg1966934204_20180707_2152431.jpg.ebc59c0e9cfce2363b0e78546c33d1dc.jpg652603485_20180707_2152551.jpg.8727087f490f926d5cc18385d962bcb1.jpg1897544036_20180707_2153221.jpg.eab2541e6d27b2f49ced8e277f6b94d6.jpg1768328349_20180707_2153411.jpg.3c9650acedd86c86b3d8085e3c83901b.jpg

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I will make my statement on the discussion between Steve and Andy (which I much enjoyed) when I have some time to study the case of each one. 

I believe that my Bavarian pfm 71 is converted for the Gewehr 88.

Regards

D.

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36 minutes ago, zuluwar2006 said:

THIS IS AN EXTREMELY RARE MODIFICATION WITH A non FULL LENGHT BLADE

AUSTRIAN MODEL 1870 BAYONET

CONVERTED TO FIT THE GEWEHR 88 RIFLE. 

Extremely rare modification with wooden grips, is very very rare to see such a model, as most converted Austrian bayonets, are with chequered leather grips. 

BACK OF THE HILT MACHINED IN ONE STEP 2 MM DEEP FOR 37 MM. 

Full muzzle ring. The ring brushed with a steel tube to fit the Gewehr 88.

Single edge yatagan blade with square fullers. 

Similar to the described model EB 84

NUMBER 670 IN ROY WILLIAMS BOOK FOR ERSATZ BAYONETS.

The model with wooden grips is totally converted by the Germans during ww1. If you compare the model with leather grips and with the wooden grips, you can see that the wooden grips are held by 2 big rivets. The one is at the same place to held the leaf spring. But is bigger. 

Regards

D. 

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From the French book, Atlas of baïonnettes, 1st edition. 

Roy Williams has no reference for the rare model with wooden grips, proof of the great rarity for this ersatz model. 

Regards

D. 

IMG_20191124_201704.jpg

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Wooden grips on Werndl are replacement in year of service,and are not extremely rare,the conversion to Gew.88 is nice,but this is not a ersatz bayonet by Germans,but old bayonet used by Austrian wit delivered Gew.88 by Germans as help in war. The shortage of blade is older for M1873 standarts.

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7 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Wooden grips on Werndl are replacement in year of service,and are not extremely rare,the conversion to Gew.88 is nice,but this is not a ersatz bayonet by Germans,but old bayonet used by Austrian wit delivered Gew.88 by Germans as help in war. The shortage of blade is older for M1873 standarts.

Andy, you are completely wrong on this.

As soon as i will be back home, i will post my arguments about.

The wooden grips on this particular model are completely changed by german army during ww1, as and te french book says.

When you see the steel tube on the muzzle ring, then is german modification.

Austrians just machined the back of the hilt.

If you can read french, read the photo from the Atlas i have posted allready.

An ersatz german modification, it says, loud and clear.

NOT AUSTRIAN.

And when you find an ersatz werndl bayonet converted to fit Gew 88 and with replacements wooden grips, made on ww1 by germans, then it is even more scare ersatz bayonet, as it is sure it did saw action during the war and it has the charateristic of been extremely rare [german ersatz werndl bayonets are on the categorie of RARE bayonets].

Regards, D.

 

Edited by zuluwar2006
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11 hours ago, zuluwar2006 said:

THIS IS AN EXTREMELY RARE MODIFICATION WITH A non FULL LENGHT BLADE

 

Even with a shortened blade a monster of a thing to have hanging from the belt never mind when fixed to a rifle!

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7 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Wooden grips on Werndl are replacement in year of service,and are not extremely rare,the conversion to Gew.88 is nice,but this is not a ersatz bayonet by Germans,but old bayonet used by Austrian wit delivered Gew.88 by Germans as help in war. The shortage of blade is older for M1873 standarts.

 

19 minutes ago, zuluwar2006 said:

 

... If you can read french, read the photo from the Atlas i have posted allready.

An ersatz german modification, it says, loud and clear.

 

 

Andy is quite right to mention that the Austrians were supplied with Gew.88, and so it is more than likely that they modified some of their obsolete bayonets to fit these. They certainly had a bayonet shortage problem, which is why they received Austrian M.1888 and M.1895 bayonets from German makers (the EB 86, 87, and 88) in 1916-1918.

 

My own feelings on the discussion here are simple. Having recently had the chance to review a lot of ersatz and modified bayonets, then if it has a German fraktur on the blade or pommel, indicating approval by a German inspector, and/or a German ownership mark (e.g., a 'Deutschland', 'DEUTSCH' or Reichs Adler stamp), then it is something converted in Germany for German use. If there is NO fraktur on what looks to be a German-made or modified ersatz, then it is almost certainly not an official German modification for German use, but could be made in Germany for Austrian, Turkish, Bulgarian use. 

 

There are Werndl bayonets with cut pommels to fit the Gew.88, there are even unmodified Werndl bayonets with German ownership marks meant for use a sidearms only. Carter is VERY cautious on the matter. In vol. 3, p.177, he states (I have put in bold the really relevant points):  

 

"In the same catalague [i.e., ALFA 1911] 250,000 surplus Werndl bayonets and M.1870 sabre bayonets were advertised. ... a few of the bayonets must have been requisitioned and modified ... These [Werndl] conversions with bushed muzzle rings are extremely rare. If as many as 250,000 bayonets were available in 1914 it seems that most were probably sent direct to Austria...Many were modified by the Austrians by stepping the pommels to fit the German Gewehr 88 supplied during the war... The bayonets thought to have been used by the Germans have bushed muzzle rings as well as stepped pommels ... Not one of the modified sabre bayonets has been recorded with German ownership of acceptance [i.e., fraktur] markings nor has any photograph ever been found of a German soldier equpped with one of these bayonets. Some doubt has been expressed about the origin of the alterations and in view of the lack of evidence to prove their German use they may have been modified in Austria" Carter  does note that as some of these bayonets were catalogued by Dangre in his seminal work on ersatz bayonets, then they could have been left in Belgian by the German occupation forces. BUT, Austrian troops did serve in Belgium albeit in small numbers and so could have brought them with them.

 

One of the problems here is of course that hardly any serious work has been done on the matter of Austrian ersatz bayonets apart from those rather simple types consisting of a blade with a rifle barrel attachment 

 

Julian

 

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Thats about, thanks Julian for adding details, Atlas is a Catalog, and various different sources are wrong on this, unfortunally even Carter and Williams added some strange information about this.they are more catalogs with excellent pictures of pieces but not correct information.

Maybe Ch.Mery wrote about it more, but i am personally sceptical about the depth of their information on Austrian empire equipment.

I always look for monografies, as always the native austrian authors are the best!!, i will look at the Heino Hintermeier book " in Stunde der Not" where are described the reworks for Gew88 and with period photos of using of the bayonets with austrian soldiers.

The Werndl was still in use in Landsturm and background security units, to end of WW1, large ammount in inventory still in 1914.

Not to forget germans never made any austrian ammunition type, not Werndls 11mm, not Mannlichers 8mm in WW1!

b.r.Andy

 

Edited by AndyBsk
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Werndl M1870 and previous modells were shortened to M1873 blade lenght already post 1873, only few escaped the shortage in depots (long blade Werndls are rare), the repair with wooden grips were applied already post 1880, in that new production was already produced with only wooden grips,

i dont see the exact details of the first one piece, but it should be unit stamped on hook or on pommel. 

Offcoarse all the upgrade bayonets for Gew88 are rare to compare to other bayonets not converted, it doesnt mean its not a good find, anyway a wooden handle variation could be not declared as extremely rare,from the standpoint its mostly a period repair.

The conversion were mostly realised by Austrian in german manner rework. 

Even to leather grips on Werndls only the first M1867 have a pressed leather grips, later on M1870 was used kauchuk or syntetic kauchuk sometimes called with various terms.

Edited by AndyBsk
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In part 3 of Hintermeier book is described the help of Deutsches Reich to Austria, already in July/August 1914 were sent to Austria about 60000 of obsolete Gew.88 rifles, with ammo and bayonets, in that early period are mentioned PFM71 and Hirschfaengers 71 in reality delivered (this is the reason of many PFM71 observed in our area - 2 pcs of my collection), later were already done the typical metall band ersatz bayonets(wout handgrips) in Austria for some of the rifles, same as Werndl bayonets were reworked in german manner like here presented.

Prior to end 1915 were delivered minimum 83000 rifles of Gew.88, and 68 million of ammunition.

The austrian denotes this type as M13 rifle, with manual printed in 1915.

original designation was " 8mm (7.92 mm) M.13 Repetiergewehr (deutsches M.88) "

Following units were equiped(second line and guarding units)  Working companies of Stamm battalions near Wienna,Landwehr and Landsturm units and some Tyrolian Kaiserschuetzen, that served as guards on various places. there is period pictures on net too, when i found them i will post it. The original manual is presented with HF1871 and typical ersatz steelband ersatz austrian bayonets, exist period photos with PFM1871 Pioneer faschinenmesser too. 

To all austrian real bayonet collectors is this a main booklet:

https://www.booklooker.de/Bücher/Heino-Hintermeier+In-der-Stunde-der-Not-Fremdländische-Gewehrmodelle-in-Österreich-Ungarn-1914-1918/id/A02k1aGp01ZZX?zid=7hs2itk1gd6rd6h1hao9dg2iiv

 

M13HHbook.jpg

Edited by AndyBsk
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Dear friends, 

All the great writers on the field of Ww1 german ersatz bayonets, categorized the Austrian werndl bayonet with bushed muzzle ring with iron tube, clearly on ersatz german bayonets. 

Also Carter is saying that when you see a werndl bayonet with machined hilt AND a hushed muzzle ring with the iron TUBE, IT IS A GERMAN ERSATZ CONVERTION. 

I am posting some photos from Christian Merry and Carter's book for ersatz bayonets. 

They categorized this convertion (this is crystal clear) on german ersatz bayonets and NOT as an Austrian bayonet convertion. 

I rest my case, saying that so many great collectors, so many auction houses, have sold several ersatz werndl bayonets for a lot of money the last 27 years I am watching this section, for serious amounts. 

Noone has ever complaint until today for fake description. Just imagine that if it was this convertion an Austrian one, the value could be 60 to 75% minus than for an ersatz german convertion. 

To my knowledge, 31 ersatz werndl bayonets have been sold, as far as I know, to museums and great collectors. All have the same point of view :German ersatz modification from an Austrian bayonet.

Charles Dangre has catalogued this convertion as a genuine german ersatz, and here is his sketch with clearly visible the brushed muzzle ring with the tube. 

Regards

D. 

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There are still problems what has realised with the rifles? bayonets were only parts of rifles,  firstly no one reported how many purchased German Military of Werndls in 1914, that they were in 250000 ammounts in Alfa katalog in 1911, doesnt mean automatically that the rifles were bought by germans?.Question is how many there were in 1914? And what in reality german autorities buyed there.

Secondly the ammunition is fully different for german and a logistical problem. 

In Austria are period pictures with using of Werndl bayonets on Gew88 rifles, anyway Werndl inventory numbers on 1914 were still about 350000 in austrian army service, so no needs to buy anything. Read what in reality wrote Carter about this conversion in You presented books. " must have been requisitioned and modified" he had any paper document confirmation about this??

Personally Carter had no the real numbers in time when he wrote his books,  as Hintermeier researched the Kriegs Ministerial archives in Vienna  and in Steyr in last 30 years.

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24 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

There are still problems what has realised with the rifles? bayonets were only parts of rifles,  firstly no one reported how many purchased German Military of Werndls in 1914, that they were in 250000 ammounts in Alfa katalog in 1911, doesnt mean automatically that the rifles were bought by germans?.Question is how many there were in 1914? And what in reality german autorities buyed there.

Secondly the ammunition is fully different for german and a logistical problem. 

In Austria are period pictures with using of Werndl bayonets on Gew88 rifles, anyway Werndl inventory numbers on 1914 were still about 350000 in austrian army service, so no needs to buy anything. Read what in reality wrote Carter about this conversion in You presented books. " must have been requisitioned and modified" he had any paper document confirmation about this??

Personally Carter had no the real numbers in time when he wrote his books,  as Hintermeier researched the Kriegs Ministerial archives in Vienna  and in Steyr in last 30 years.

Andy

According your statement, we have to cancel all the sales of same bayonets, which have been sold as rare Ww1 german ersatz bayonets and refund the money, as there are not german ersatz but Austrian, so the description was false. 

Before we start a Civil War between collectors and museums, my opinion is that :

The bushed muzzle ring with iron tube is a convertion made ONLY from german army during ww1, as we can meet him and on Peabody martini 1879 Romanian bayonet, converted by german army and categorized as a genuine ersatz german bayonet also. 

I am a good listener, but I believe you are wrong on this matter. 

Also, Austrians soldiers were really in Belgium or this is an hypothesis without any historical evidence??? 

And they were equipped with what rifles and bayonets??? 

But we do know german army was in Belgium for sure and was equipped with Gew 88 rifles and converted ersatz bayonets. Charles Dangre found this ersatz bayonet in Belgium after the end of ww1, and in Brussels. 

In Brussels were not Austrian troops, as far as I know. 

So, my point of view is we are talking about an original german ersatz bayonet. 

Also Christian Merry categorized this bayonet as an original ersatz german modification on his excellent book. 

Regards

D. 

 

 

IMG_20191125_194938.jpg

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What a fascinating debate! 

 

However, what Carter wrote is the best - shall we say? - objective view. He was not entirely convinced that these converted Werndl's were German made for German use. He also makes it pretty clear that it was only because Dangre included converted Werndl's in his last article on the erstaz in the Brussels museum that he saw the possibilty these were German made for German use. 

 

I was never abe to get a copy of Hintermeier's book, but if Andy says that Hintermeier got his information from the Austrian archives, then I would go along with that - these Werndl's were converted for KuK use. The lack of German control / ownership marks on them is a major problem for me if they were for German use.

 

What is also a problem for me is that the Werndl does not feature in the 1915 German text on 'Kurze Beschreibung der an Ersatztruppen und Rekrutendepots...' the official manual issued to German recruits, etc., on how to use non -German weapons - a work that includes even the Ross rifle and the Peabody rifle! There is NO Werndl in that!  So if it was used by the German army, then it was not even as a training weapon. It logically follows then, that these conversions are more likely if not entirely Austrian, not German

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