WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION

[zuluwar2006]

Andy

Is original and has unit marking on it. 

I will send you more detailed photos via pm. 

On Roy Williams book I can see the reference for "B.T." for

Divisions-Brückentrain or

Belagerunsartillerie. 

[AndyBsk]

The frog could be ok, i dont see the details as the photos are small. Anyway when You mean a BAM and dating stamp is reported too on newer repros, the sewing is weakly and leather looks thin. But as mentioned i could be wrong here. Rivets are too small for a WW1 frog.

 The BT could be not Belagerungs artillerie, as in 1897 german stempelungs manual is clear declared that Belagerungs is started with italic font also handwritten form not large Latin upper case font as is here. Roy Williams made some small errors in his excellent books too. I have discussed with him some problematic pieces of his book volume I.

B. Belagerungs (Train)

Kommando des Artillerie Belagerungstrains Nr.1, desgl. ....................B.T.1.5.

Brückentrain der 2.Infnaterie Division,desgl. ............................. B.T.2.25.

Edited 21 October , 2019 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

On 20/10/2019 at 18:07, zuluwar2006 said:

My new adittion.

An extremely rare Wyttemberg unit maked bayonet.

The wyttemberg unit marked bayonets are extremely rare to find.

A SG 98/05 alter Art mit Sägerücken [with sawback]

 

If I remember rightly it is an odd thing that Wurrtemburg marked regular bayonets are rarer than Wurrtemburg erstaz ones...

 

Julian

[trajan]

On 21/10/2019 at 20:29, AndyBsk said:

The frog could be ok, i dont see the details as the photos are small. Anyway when You mean a BAM and dating stamp is reported too on newer repros, the sewing is weakly and leather looks thin. But as mentioned i could be wrong here. Rivets are too small for a WW1 frog.

 The BT could be not Belagerungs artillerie, as in 1897 german stempelungs manual is clear declared that Belagerungs is started with italic font also handwritten form not large Latin upper case font as is here. Roy Williams made some small errors in his excellent books too. I have discussed with him some problematic pieces of his book volume I.

B. Belagerungs (Train)

Kommando des Artillerie Belagerungstrains Nr.1, desgl. ....................B.T.1.5.

Brückentrain der 2.Infnaterie Division,desgl. ............................. B.T.2.25.

 

For a 1906 bayonet, then 'Bruekentrain' would be correct.

 

Julian

[zuluwar2006]

An extremely RARE RUSSIAN MOSIN NAGANT 1891 BAYONET, REISSUED FOR WW1 IMPERIAL GERMAN TROOPS  WITH ITS ERSATZ SCABBARD, WITH THE IMPERIAL EAGLE ON IT, INDICATING THE USE BY GERMANS DURING Ww1 and a unit marking on the bayonet, 6.K.215, 6th company number of soldier 215.

Unit marked bayonets of this kind are extremely rare. 

Regards

D. 

[zuluwar2006]

3 hours ago, zuluwar2006 said:

An extremely RARE RUSSIAN MOSIN NAGANT 1891 BAYONET, REISSUED FOR WW1 IMPERIAL GERMAN TROOPS  WITH ITS ERSATZ SCABBARD, WITH THE IMPERIAL EAGLE ON IT, INDICATING THE USE BY GERMANS DURING Ww1 and a unit marking on the bayonet, 6.K.215, 6th company number of soldier 215.

Unit marked bayonets of this kind are extremely rare. 

Regards

D. 

Another one from my collection with the imperial eagle and another one with unit markings on the throat of the bayonet

[Steve1871]

Demitrios, You seem better than the magician David Copperfield at pulling out all the RARE stuff, over and over again

 

Very well done 2X there!! Thank’s

[AndyBsk]

Nice pieces, the blade was preserved with scabbard, dont see any producer markings, is mostly a war time piece, the german units are well stamped. 

[zuluwar2006]

On 08/10/2019 at 21:13, zuluwar2006 said:

Βayerisches Pionier-Faschinenmesser M 71 

Αn extremely rare bayonet for Bavarian pioneer troops and the last and most rare convertion. 

Unit marking on crossguard B.2. P. 3.10

Faint but visible. 

The blade although similar to the Prussian pfm 71, differed in one respect. The lower cutting edge began 122mm from the crossguard, possibly to prevent damage to the crossguard when sharpening the blade. 

This bayonet has milled out the muzzle ring. 

Therefore must be the last constructed on 1901 by GFA (Gewehr Fabrik Amberg) and if you notice the hilt are not the standard M 71 type made in 1898-1899.

Notice the blade. 

It has more squared ends to the fuller and a less angled start to the cutting edge.

It has an extended slot  to the bar attachment groove. 

A very rare and interesting bayonet., which I was searching for decades. 

Regards

D. 

 

 

Some more detailed photos from this Bavarian extremely rare model

Watch the milled out of the muzzle ring. 

Also the blade,  has more squared ends to the fuller and a less angled start to the cutting edge.

It has an extended slot  to the bar attachment groove.

[Steve1871]

Great find Demitrios, is it dated 1901?? Is maker Amberg? The pommel has the same strange script “G and that mystery letter, S, or t or what” have you found a reference to that? No one has found proof anywhere, I did a post on that. It is interesting to have that two letter mark, only seen on one other S71 type bayonet.

with that mark, to have the inspection/ proof mark “ crown over gothic C” reversed is a bit odd, being upside down from each other

 

Have you any idea how many of these Gew88 conversions were made?

[AndyBsk]

It would be nice to known what is on spine of blade?, or acceptance date, as the GS on pommel speaks for Gebruder Simson, which is pre marking of Simson &Co.Suhl. So it should be earlier as 1880 made probably, the pommel was heavy hammered, so probably already not attachable on rifle, the barell ring is little reemed out, is there not a reduction of inner diameter - 17,4mm? thanks.

[Steve1871]

Hello again Andy

 

This last piece here of ZULU2006 is a Bavarian S71PFM that was converted to fit the Gew88 better, the cross guard is new and a little oversized to ream out  the rear of muzzle ring concave to fit flush with the front of the rifles barrel shroud, jacket (see my pic) I have a couple, these, in my opinion, they are not trial’s bayonet’s, that would mean trials for a new model of bayonet. That was not the case. No new model was ever developed. Only a very few of these modified bayonet’s exist. And the few that I know of, my 3, this one of ZULU2006, one in California, US all are Bavarian with the false edge. 
   The false edge is simple (In my opinion) . When a soldier pulls a saw backed bayonet out, he naturally pulls away from the saw side. With a steel blade, even un-sharpened will cut or ware on the BRASS

throat. Zulu2006 measured at 122 mm, 

when drawing my own bayonets, PFM’s,  regular Vs Bavarian, that fit’s just right to draw out or sheath those long, broad saw back blades

 

There is still very little info on these conversions. My thinking is a single armory having extra bayonets tried on their own to try a way to re- use these bayonets for a new rifle, Gew88

Expensive in any condition

Edited 11 November , 2019 by Steve1871

[AndyBsk]

Already all is described in Franz Ruediger Preussisch-Deutsche Seitengewehre vol IV, on side nr.103 is Bavarian PFM M71(TypIII aptiert fuer G88), with false edge lenght of 122mm, the barell ring was only reworked to accept Gew88 as normally the differences on lenght handles varies so they need to rework it, normally S1871 bayonet should be functionall on G88 as the locking lenght and barell ring 17,4mm is same, but there is no exact dimmensions by all producers, so the bayonets should be lightly refurbished. PFM 1871 was adopted in Bavarian army on august 1877. Scabbard have different ramp opposite to hook typical on other german areas. This piece was produced mostly already for Gew71 in period around 1880 have older type of handle. Blade should be Gebr.Simson, Suhl stamped.

 

Edited 12 November , 2019 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Hey Andy, hate to argue,books are not alway’s 100% right, yes, some PFM bayonet’s may have been reworked, but these few Bavarian like the one ZULU2006 show’s here in this/ his post clearly shows, by my photo that a slightly larger cross guard/ring were added to allow room to mill out recess to fit flush with front of barrel jacket

I know of 3 type Bavarian conversions (mine)

first was standard S71PFM Bavarian with the mortise slot lengthened 

 

second was exactly like ZULU2006 bayonet here

 

the third was same as the post here, but a very small steel tab was added on rear face of cross guard, I think to help “brace” the bayonet/ jacket tighter together

 

Although I have a nice collection of bayonets , I will never match or come close to the vast amount of rare bayonets and regimental markings of his collection. I just like to admire his post, newest surprise for the rest of us collectors

 

Thanks Demitrios

[AndyBsk]

No problem, but i believe in this case You are not right, the Franz Rudiger is one of the best in old german bayonets (personally believe best book in the World in that area), as his books have details that are not published in any other books, as he researched all the german archives in 3 decades.

The " kasten" or longer steps nut of backside of handle was for Bavarian M1869 Apt. Gewehr (bavarian rifle slot),which is the first version of handle, on Zulus piece is the older heavy handle, which was changed in production in period post 1890. So there was later made reworks of crossguards for M1871 rifle as the bavarian dimmensions are different to preussischen standarts of Gew1871 and the end ring mashining as visible here was done for Gew.88 some years later, as mentioned deciphered as Type III. He describes detailed how the conversions were realised in Bavaria. The conversion were for M1871 and M1871/84 rifles, different reworks for Gew.88 and the production of newer PFM1871 post 1891 were already made with newer handles that would be fitted on all previous modells of rifles.

Edited 13 November , 2019 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Debate’s, as long as no one get’s angry, upset are healthy, good for the mind and soul!!

 

I believe you are wrong on this Andy

As for those Franz Rudiger books, I love them,, thick and cheap price, I never found vol. 3, too bad no English version of them

 

First, you mention the Bavarian M69 Werner “Apert” New Model, I took 2 day’s to respond to you to have a friend of mine try bayonets on his M69 new model. Now the new model is simple a standard M69 with a new, standard M71 Mauser barrel with lug and sights, no difference at all from M71 rifles. My friend does not have a Bavarian PFM. He tried 2 regular S71 and a reg. S71PFM bayonets to his new model Werder, THEY ALL FIT

You, Andy say the bayonets like the S71PFM Bavarian, modified like ZULU2006 shows here, and mine were for the Werder. The Werder originally had a different , slimmer saw back bayonet and ANY S71 PFM, will fit the M71 and Gew88 and my friend tried, Will fit new model M69. It makes no sense at all to replace cross guard with a larger one modify it to mount on a standard M71 barrel/lug.

The extended mortise slot again makes no sense to put on M71 barrel

 

I do not have a Gew88 rifle to try on, not home anyway. The lengthening of the mortise slot I think was for extra clearance on Gew88. The photo above, I post of 2  bayonets comparing muzzle rings are both Bavarian PFM,, no find good pommel pics yet, but my first PFM, besides false edge, has extended slot but standard cross guard, 

 

Andy, you mention older handle, pre 1890?

Sorry but I do not know what you talk of

I collect M71 rifle family and Bayonets 29 years now. Besides the downward sweep of brass final on pommel, I do not see ANY difference in size or weight I do hear of some “ cadet”, version but that would not be regular issue stuff. I base my opinions on my collection, handling and mounting various bayonets on my rifles. I have my

“Brass Battalion” as I call them,have about 15 standard, 10 or 11 PFM, 

including 65/71, standsrd and my 3 Bavr , few 71 saw backs, 71 wurtbg double edge and 60/71.  All of these have same cross guard, muzzle ring and pommel, except again, downward sweep of  end of brass pommel. I do not know your older “heavy” Vs light pommels

My S71’s date from 73’ to 90’s, 

 

Few extra pic’s 

[AndyBsk]

Firstly i answered what describe Fr.Rudiger,secondly when You look at Werder 69,you will see the bayonet adapter is on barell, not as on Gew.71 on front ring,which means different position of barell ring on crossguard to explain the needs of replace crossguards,secondly the Werder bayonet adapter has a small bridge in front of lock cking device, this is because of handle of bavarian bayonet has longer and doubble stepped slot for rifle. Werder 69 apt.means only configuration for Mauser cartridge,but the barell remains old,is not new modell with new barells of M71. So you could proof it only on older rifle, so You are wrong here.Rudiger has original blueprints of changing,same as contracts and exact date who and when delivered and reworked the crossguards.

[Steve1871]

I just check here in America, the N.R.A.  And Gun Report article ( gun collector magazine for decades) and guns magazine articles, all say same

Werder was superior in Franco/ German war....... After 1872, adopting M71 rifle, Bavaria start convert M69 rifles, reaming out chambers. And new sights..... the Werder used a smaller, bullet/ smaller charge,  the longer M71 Patrone , produces too high pressures in the Werder barrels/ chambers, testing was done for just a few months,  these were the so called M69 Apt. but they settled on simply rebarreling with the M71 barrels coming out of current factories .

( I had forgotten Bavaria tried modify  own 69 barrels) . I can not find a clear photo on line yet to show muzzle area. 
 

You were right in that Bavaria did try modify Werder barrels, but again, Those attempts were failures.Bavaria finally, officially adopted the new M71 barrels and converted at least a few thousand rifles, no carbines were ever converted 

 

Now for ZULU2006 and my S71PFM conversions,you must be thinking MRD, the INSIDE muzzle diameter, around the barrel, M69,  M69 first conv. Attempts and  second  phase of M69 with M71 barrels... You are only dealing with inside muzzle ring, there was nothing like a barrel jacket or anything else only centimeters from muzzle to have a new, larger ring, rimmed out in rear .

 

Now there could have been someone submit design to fix PFM to original M69, but again, Bavaria went with the N71 barrel., so yes, there may have been blueprints, I collect M71 rifles and there are over 20 designs, at least 8 had prototypes made of M71 ( single shot) for magazines in Germany,Austria, and England,  but the designs were there.

 

You say double stepped slot, Nowcyouvare getting into ZULU2006 area of expertise, ha has most likely the largest collection of variations on stepped bayonets, but those were all on Werder bayonets and he has 16-17 variations in all. I have never see or heard or read where any S71 of any type had their pommel stepped down

A standard M 69, nothing for larger ring to mold into

[AndyBsk]

You forgot that Mr. Ruediger searched origin KriegsMinisterial documents, his blueprints are from factories, his records are excellent, about bavarian PFM1871 is there 14 pages, i dont known better book about german bayonets, when You have a 20 bayonets so You need the book, vol.IV. (PFM1865-71 are described in pages 7-154)

Again Werder M1869 bayonet has a stepped slot, i have a Werder 69 bayonet, there is modification with removing of spine of handle area when attaching to Gew.M71 or You mount a new crosspiece with higher positioned barell ring.

"Nach der Reichsgründung wurde die Waffe zwecks Vereinheitlichung 1875/1876 auf die Mauserpatrone M71 (11 × 60 mm R) aptiert, das Patronenlager wurde aufgerieben und ein anderes Visier für die größere Schussweite der M71-Patrone angebracht. Gewehre, die von Beginn an für die Patrone 11 × 60 mm R eingerichtet waren, erhielten die Bezeichnung M/69 n.M. (neuen Musters)."

From wiki added the aptiert design is only reworking of chamber to new Mauser cartridge and new sights.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werder-Gewehr_M/1869 - detailed picture in front where You will see the providing nut in front of locking adapter

About handle offcourse existed "Gefaes alter art" and "Neuer art", the newer and older design, he decipher period of additional large crosspiece post 1892.

1870-1875 heavy handle mostly from previous modells PFM65 and PFM69, 1875-92 light handle with thin crosspiece, post 1892 light handle with heavy crosspiece.

Edited 15 November , 2019 by AndyBsk

[AndyBsk]

Note the prolonged nut area on spine of handle in front of locking adapter area, which is typical only for M69 configuration, other german PFM71 dont have the longer but normal short locking nut. here a M1869 Werder lightened and upgraded for Gew.M71 with removing of back of handle in one step configuration, because the locking nut is on front band of Gew71 not as on M1869 on barell. 

[Steve1871]

Hey Andy

 

 We have a difference in wording, not a problem. In your post, say locking adapter and locking nut or nut. In the west, Western Europe, U.K. And America, we say Bayonet LUG or simply LUG, the short part that goes forward of the lug on that M69 would be called simply, a BAR or rib or even a guide rib, No problems at all on that.You simply had Me confused

 

Now you can check many books and web sites, they explain the History of Bavarian M69 “Blitz” rifle  was outdated by the M71 only 2 years later. With all M69 they produced, they were the last German state to Switch over to M71.now no standard S71 bayonets are known to have been converted to fit the out modeled M69.  This is about the S71 PFM only. It took several years to produce enough guns to supply the whole of the new, unified Germany. Bavaria still used (peace time) The M69 while producing the M71  till enough were made for all of it’s troops 

The S71 PFM, originally the S65, then bushed as the S65/71 PFM,  The S71PFM was never made for the M69 Blitz. 
As I said before, Yes Bavaria did try convert original M69 by reaming out chamber and new sights, this was tried only few months. Bavaria simply changed to new N61 barrels on the M69 Werder rifles. Now producing the new made M71 PFM bayonets in Bavaria with distinguishing False edge ( broad blade saw back) it seem’s that Yes, a few only were converted by extending the mortise slot to fit the rib guide on the Werder, It took I think about 2 years for Bavaria to produce enough M71 rifles to retire the Werder. So now that is One conversion.

You mention a thin cross guard and thicker one. I have handled Many Many

S71 bayonets, and studied photos of many more. I have never seen any variation.. Above, I post that pic showing 2  Bavarian S71 PFM, like the new one ZULU2006 posted. Both are Bavarian again and clearly show A NEW , LARGER MUZZLE RING, it is larger to have enough space to mill out vs concave to fit flush against the front of Gew88 barrel jacket. It seems we are both right

 

ZULU2006 and my S71PFM Bavarian/converted bayonets are

71PFM, converted for M69, still fit the M71 and converted a second time for the Gew88, so it fitted all 3 rifles, and may have been actually used on all 3 since they are unit marked. Since a standard S71 will not fit An older  Werder rifle, these Very Rare bayonets are the only ones that can fit all three, Werder, M71, and Gew88,  one bayonet converted for 2 different rifles is double rare, don’t you think

That rib guide is a shorter version of French Chasspot/Gras rifle

 

[AndyBsk]

I must laugh, when You dont believe a expert like is Franz R. is Your choice, offcourse my english is bad so possibility that You dont understand what i wrote, as i only interpret a german text of the book.

You could see even 500 PFM, when not seen the backgrounds of Ministerial archives You dont known about the bayonets much more as other collector.

I believe there is already many declared.

-in wiki is clear mentioned that rework of rifles M1869 aptiert was done in period 1875-6 also no few months, it was only recalibered not new barell added. Its not the New Model M1869.

"Die Gesamtzahl aller zwischen 1869 und 1873 hergestellten Werdergewehre wird auf etwa 127.000 Stück geschätzt. Im Jahr 1875 beschloss man die Anschaffung von Werdergewehren „neuer Art“. Die bestehenden Gewehre sollten modernisiert werden, was unter anderem die Aptierung auf das Kaliber 11 × 60 mm R einbezog. Dazu sollte der Bestand an modernen Infanteriegewehren auf 200.000 aufgestockt werden. Die Gewehre „neuer Art“ wurden hauptsächlich von der Waffenfabrik Steyr bezogen (ca. 20.000) und aus Amberg (ca. 5.000) hergestellt. "

Similar text of well known expert and bavarian native Benedikt Hammer.

Von Dezember 1875 bis Oktober 1876 wurde das M69 auf die Mauser-Patrone M71 eingerichtet (bekam auch eine neue Visierung); in Summe wurden 124 540 Gewehre umgerüstet.
Ab 1875 wurde auch das neue Muster M1869n/M eingeführt; es hatte den Lauf, Vorderschaft, Ringe und Visier wie das Gewehr M1871; 5.000 Stück wurden in Amberg, 20.000 Stück von Steyr hergestellt.

So when You understand german only 25000 new Modells M1869 were done, with new Mauser barells and new bayonet lug on front ring, also majority of the M1869 old modells were reworked to new caliber in period 1875/6. Steyr M1869nM have 1877 date, so later made as refurbishments.

Rechambered were total 124540 old Werder M1869 to M1869.aptiert.

-Koenig Ludwig II. approved the design of PFM71 on the M1869 apt. rifle and other Gew71 rifles in 1877, as pioneer units has majority of older rifles, so the PFM were equiped with the older M1869 bayonet bar

-change of crossguard for M1869 nM and M1871 rifle was done in 1887, exact detailed orders are published, as the barell ring is higher as on M1869 aM rifle!!! M1869 old Modell were declared as obsolete already, because Gew71/84 were bought.

-drilling of backside of crosguard barell ring for Gew88 was done 1890 and later

-since 1892 they produced bavarian PFM1871 identical to prussian PFM1871 with normal non stepped lug, attachable on 3 rifles Gew71, 71/84 and Gew.88

I believe this is my last post about this area.

Edited 17 November , 2019 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Andy, your last post you say “ no new barrel added, “then below some german text say You admit 25000 new models with Mauser barrels. 
 

I have held maybe 5-6 Werder rifles, all with M71 barrels, never seen an original Werder rifle like pic you show. The first Bavarian PFM I talk of would be your conversion I guess, standard PFM, mortise slot extended to fit that guide rib you show, again, standard, original cross guard and ring, not a replacement guard 

 

we both agree that  the larger muzzle ring was for Gew88 , you agree saying it start 1890 or later

 

So we both agree On several things

1. Werder/Bavaria did try modify original barrel for new larger M71 Patrone

2.  Some, a very small number it seams of Bavarian PFM bayonets had their mortise slot

     Extended to fit the original Werder with their extended guide bar

3.  Werder rifles were a year or so later, re- barreled with M71 barrels, you site Franz as say

     25000 new model, barreled rifles

4.  We both agree the new, larger guard/ muzzle ring , dished out was for the Gew88, you 

      state was done 1890 or later

You 

     and I agree on a lot now, what I do not understand is your replacing cross guards, Does Franz show photo of original next replacement guard to SEE a difference? Only other thing is older, heavy Vs newer light pommel,  does Franz have comparison photo for me to see ?

 

I am a trucker in America, no books with me and about 3200 Km from home, going away right now

[Steve1871]

Andy, one last thing, does Franz know closet how many of these modified Bavarian PFM were converted? I do not know, thank you

Steve

[AndyBsk]

Offcoarse Franz described all the conversions, to Your previous mentioning

"1. Werder/Bavaria did try modify original barrel for new larger M71 Patrone

- no they didnt not try modify, they modified for new Mauser caliber 95% of all Werders, so find a old Modell M1869 in old Werder cartridge is extremely rare (125000 were converted)

2.  Some, a very small number it seams of Bavarian PFM bayonets had their mortise slot

     Extended to fit the original Werder with their extended guide bar

-wrong the bavarian PFM1871 was produced already with stepped extended bar as their had in 1877 mainly the older M1869 apt.rifles,

3.  Werder rifles were a year or so later, re- barreled with M71 barrels, you site Franz as say

     25000 new model, barreled rifles

- no wrong it was new production started in 1876 period, so new rifles Werder M1869 n.M were produced with M1871 barells and buttstock fittings,it was only 25000 new modell rifles, so only 17% of all Werder rifles used in Bavaria

4.  We both agree the new, larger guard/ muzzle ring , dished out was for the Gew88, you  state was done 1890 or later"

 

Edited 17 November , 2019 by AndyBsk