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Remembered Today:

WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION


zuluwar2006

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Βayerisches Pionier-Faschinenmesser M 71 

Αn extremely rare bayonet for Bavarian pioneer troops and the last and most rare convertion. 

Unit marking on crossguard B.2. P. 3.10

Faint but visible. 

The blade although similar to the Prussian pfm 71, differed in one respect. The lower cutting edge began 122mm from the crossguard, possibly to prevent damage to the crossguard when sharpening the blade. 

This bayonet has milled out the muzzle ring. 

Therefore must be the last constructed on 1901 by GFA (Gewehr Fabrik Amberg) and if you notice the hilt are not the standard M 71 type made in 1898-1899.

Notice the blade. 

It has more squared ends to the fuller and a less angled start to the cutting edge.

It has an extended slot  to the bar attachment groove. 

A very rare and interesting bayonet., which I was searching for decades. 

Regards

D. 

 

 

7635670.1151851239.jpg

7635670.1343920311.jpg

7635670.1062725722.jpg

7635670.1533101813.jpg

7635670.759260350.jpg

Edited by zuluwar2006
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Hey Demetrios, is this like one of my oddball, experimental Bacarian PFM's??

 

Please post pic's of this, beside a regular one of your's, and pic of motiic slot and back of ring, mine, on 2 of them, a new cross guard was added, with a broader ring

 

YOU Never cease to Amaze me with your find's

Thanks for the post

Steve

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Is your muzzle ring oversized like this?

image.jpg

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5 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Is your muzzle ring oversized like this?

image.jpg

yes

it is milled 

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On post 443 where LAR251 marked bayonet, this is mostly a Landwehr Artillerie Regiment Nr.251,  b.r.,Andy

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23 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

On post 443 where LAR251 marked bayonet, this is mostly a Landwehr Artillerie Regiment Nr.251,  b.r.,Andy

L.A.R. 251.2.B.N.86

Lutschiffer Abteilung/Rekrutendepot 251, 2nd Bataillon

andy, very diffiult to have 251 artillery regiments on landwehr units.....

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Heck lads, been off for a while with work things -:angry2: but evidently Steve and D have posted some nice ones here. I'll doubt if I have time to catch up properly but will try to stay on course with the new posts...

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The mentioned ersatz bayonet in post 324 and in Christian Mery book with the cylindrical protrusion on crossguard, is wout bayonet adaptor fixed on front right side buttstock area on M91 rifle not workable, as is not visible on real captured rifles, the MRD should be 15mm inside. br.Andy

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Post 325 "

Bajonett 71/84

With unit marking for the

3. Marinefliegerabteilung 

With marine M stamping for the imperial navy [kaiserliche marine]. 

This bayonet is not mine. "

really strange sidearm?? wout the barell ring. And i would assume on pommel or other parts is a inspector proof. Should be compared with other confirmed Reichsmarine items. 

Edited by AndyBsk
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post 242

U.L.1 2

Unendified unit marking on pommel

Its postwar czechoslovak unit, Airforce school for NCOs weapon nr.12

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1 hour ago, AndyBsk said:

post 242

U.L.1 2

Unendified unit marking on pommel

Its postwar czechoslovak unit, Airforce school for NCOs weapon nr.12

Andy thank you very much for this comment. 

I was puzzling for years about this unit marking

Regards

D. 

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Hello D. excellent collection of german bayonets.

I assume You already known, that on the thread 197 is there a S98/02 bayonet.

In Post 108 "the unit marking is for Garde Regiment Sanitas [G.R.S.], or Garde Regiment Schutze Abteilung an extremely rare unit marking in any case.The sawback M 71 were for the 6% of the army and only for officers "

The unit is mostly Garde Reserve Schuetzen Battalion,  and the sawback S1871 were used by NCOs not Officers, as they had sabres and no rifles. 

In post 72:

"2/ a bavarian [from greek bayonet] with scabbard. Note the markings on scabbard, mayebe a unit marking?????"

-the scabbard is brazilian M08/34 and the stamping on hook is serial with letter under, greek alpha letters on parts means it was accepted into brazil army.

Edited by AndyBsk
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2 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Hello D. excellent collection of german bayonets.

I assume You already known, that on the thread 197 is there a S98/02 bayonet.

In Post 108 "the unit marking is for Garde Regiment Sanitas [G.R.S.], or Garde Regiment Schutze Abteilung an extremely rare unit marking in any case.The sawback M 71 were for the 6% of the army and only for officers "

The unit is mostly Garde Reserve Schuetzen Battalion,  and the sawback S1871 were used by NCOs not Officers, as they had sabres and no rifles. 

In post 72:

"2/ a bavarian [from greek bayonet] with scabbard. Note the markings on scabbard, mayebe a unit marking?????"

-the scabbard is brazilian M08/34 and the stamping on hook is serial with letter under, greek alpha letters on parts means it was accepted into brazil army.

Andy

Sawback models were delivered to NCO stuff, but during the war, wearred by officers also (too big the swords inside trenches). Offcourse NCO is absolutely correct. Sometimes I am making faults trying to translate from my own language. 

About the sheath for Bavarian ersatz Greek bayonet, this is the original sheath for this bayonet and not a Brazilian. The mouthpiece is shaped for this particular T blade, and has a perfect fitting. 

The Brazilian sheath, although similar to the original sheath for this extremely rare Bavarian ersatz  bayonet, has not a perfect fitting on this particular T blade. We had try to fit this bayonet with a Brazilian sheath M 08/34, as another friend claimed the same as you did, but it was a disaster, so no. 

On post 197 offcourse is a 98/02, thank you for the correction. 

Regards

D. 

Edited by zuluwar2006
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The frog hook is certainly not correct for Bayern S14, possible it was changed the mouth piece could be origin for T backed blade. there should be details visible on photos, but the alpha greek letter speaks for brazil acceptance. b.r.Andy

The piece is certainly from brazil M08/34 as i have information about the marking on CS contract for Brazil, possible the mouth piece was changed to accomodate the T back blade. 

M08_34scabbard.jpg

Edited by AndyBsk
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Andy, 

The T blade of an ersatz Greek bavarian model, cannot input to a sheath for Brazilian m08/34.

It does not fit and half of the blade should be outside the sheath, as dimensions are totally different. 

If you had the chance to have them in your hands, you could easily understand the great difference between theory and reality. 

Regards

D. 

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Sorry but You probably dont known the serial marking and acceptance on brazil M08/34 as i had for long years czechoslovak items as first collecting items.

The mouth piece was easy way opened or refilled by someone to accept bavarian M14, thats all when You look at end scabbard fittings You will find other greek alpha letter. 

This mouth piece is 100% from brazil M08/34,there is no doubt.other point is the origin S14 dont have wire for mouth piece attaching on leather on front but on backside, and german never used similar screws as here on top.Washer under hook is oval not cylindrical as here.

For comparation on Gunboard from other Greek collector

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?411944-Comparison-Of-Greek-M03-14-amp-German-S14-Greek

braz08_34b.JPG

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Andy

We compared 6 sheaths and all are the same as mine. 

No alpha Greek letter on the bottom of the sheath. 

Regular fitting on the T blade and original work on the sheath. NO REWORK, neither is Brazilian the sheath (totally different the dimensions). 

Gothic acceptance marks on the upper mouth of Bavarian ersatz sheath, usual for german sheaths...

Brazilian sheaths did not had any german inspection marks. 

I am catalogued your questions for further discussion in future. 

You cannot just change the mouthpiece, you should change all the sheath to accept the T blade. 

I recorded your argument and let you know after we study and measure over 12 sheaths, so we have a certain conclusion about. 

Regards

D. 

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I added for You the markings of real brazil M08/34 scabbard and what are the differences,offcourse the dimensions are ok as brazil M08/34 have blade lenght 38.5 cm.i have added the typical markings explanation of the pictured piece,when you have this scabbard with circle Z on Your hook on S 14 bavarian so its certainly not correct there.other point is,when you dont believe the arguments that i presented in previous mails,by 5000 pcs you couldnt have a letter behind the number.easy way ity could be remove mouth with spring and modify both part for T bak blade.is the scabbard presented in answer 72 yours on bavarian S14 bayonet?

To add here the piece of Greekman44 from Gunboard.

Differences to Brazil M08/34 scabbard

- oversized mouth area,

-different screw on mouth no half roundshape,

- different shape of hook brazil is wider, different shape of washer under hook, on S14 is oval shaped on brazil cylindrical

-different lenght of mouth piece,

-never blued as the brazil are blued steel fitings,

-no serials or proofs on hook of scabbard reported,

-no wire strip on front part of mouth piece.

-different shape of endcap piece, the S14 is smaller as brazil

the most clear assignation to brazil M08/34 are Z in circle on scabbard hook, serial number with letter matching to rifle, various greek letters alphabets as brazil inspectors,  i will add a better picture of brazil scabbard hook. 

S14 (Greek) b.jpg

Edited by AndyBsk
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I am almost convinced to your words. 

2 questions

A/ since the Brazilian scabbard is 38.5 cms, the blade of the S 14 Griechisches Messer cannot fit, as it is 40.0 cms exactly. 

B/ again the width of the S 14 is 21 mm so impossible to fit to a Brazilian sheath. It is not tapering inside the sheath. 

And it will find difficulties with the false edge. 

The original S 14 mouthpiece of the sheath has length 44.5 mm and has 2 short springs inside and with inspection stamps, as the particular sheath has on the mouthpiece. 

In any case very interesting this discussion Andy. 

Regards

D. 

 

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No problem as the blade lenght of M08/34 is 38,5mm but the scabbard lenght is more as 400mm, could You measure Your blade lenght??Please add the mouth area photo, anyway is no problem to accomode a T backed blade here to brazil M08/34 scabbard.

The mouth piece pictured on thread 72 is certainly brazil as i have listed 8 points above where You could compare with Your scabbard are there or not present on Your scabbard, but with similar stamping it could be not a german S14 scabbard. Note where ends the hook of scabbard on the piece of Gunboard attached  and how longer is the brazil mouthpiece by Yours scabbard.

Offcourse Your german collection is exellent, i only comment pieces, when i have exact information about it. Trajan known me from Gunboard. Added the exact details of Brazil M08/34 hook with  the Z in circle is only used in this form since 1937.

Brazil0834.jpg

Edited by AndyBsk
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5 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

No problem as the blade lenght of M08/34 is 38,5mm but the scabbard lenght is more as 400mm, could You measure Your blade lenght??Please add the mouth area photo, anyway is no problem to accomode a T backed blade here to brazil M08/34 scabbard.

The mouth piece prictured is certainly brazil as i have listed 8 points above where You could compare with Your scabbard is there or not, but with similar stamping it could be not a S14 scabbard. Note where ends the hook of scabbard on Your piece and how longer is the brazil mouthpiece.

Offcourse Your german collection is exellent, i only comment pieces, when i have exact information about it. Trajan known me from Gunboard.Added the exact details of Brazil M08/34 the Z in circle is only used in this form since 1937.

Brazil0834.jpg

Andy it was great pleasure for me, making this conversation. 

A collector does not and should not say that he knows everything. 

Through conversation we are able to discuss and to learn. 

Thank you again for your time. 

Regards

D. 

P. S. The late Roy Williams keep saying to me, it was a Brazilian sheath with altered mouthpiece. Just for the record to this glorious collector. 

Edited by zuluwar2006
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Thanks for discussion, i knowned Roy W., i visited him on Creta island in 2009 when i remember correctly, when he had written only Volume I. b.r.Andy

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My new adittion.

An extremely rare Wyttemberg unit maked bayonet.

The wyttemberg unit marked bayonets are extremely rare to find.

A SG 98/05 alter Art mit Sägerücken [with sawback]

Manufaturer: ERFURT

Date : W06 

Truppenstempel [unit marking] : B.T.XIII.36

Divisions-Brückentrain or

Belagerunsartillerie,13.Army Korps,Waffe Nr.36

The XIII (Royal Württemberg) Army Corps / XIII AK (German: XIII. (Königlich Württembergisches) Armee-Korps) was a corps of the Imperial German Army. It was, effectively, also the army of the Kingdom of Württemberg, which had been integrated in 1871 into the Prussian Army command structure, as had the armies of most German states. The corps was originally established as the Württemberg Corps Command (Korpskommando) in 1817. It became the XIII Army Corps when it was integrated into the Prussian numbering system on December 18, 1871, shortly after the Franco-Prussian War.

on mobilization on August 2, 1914 the Corps was restructured. The 180th Infantry Regiment was assigned to the 26th Reserve Division in XIV Reserve Corps. The 26th Cavalry Brigade was withdrawn to form part of the 7th Cavalry Division and the 27th Cavalry Brigade was broken up and its regiments assigned as reconnaissance units to the divisions. The two divisions received engineer companies and other support units from the Corps headquarters. In summary, XIII Corps mobilised with 24 infantry battalions, 8 machine gun companies (48 machine guns), 8 cavalry squadrons, 24 field artillery batteries (144 guns), 4 heavy artillery batteries (16 guns), 3 pioneer companies and an aviation detachment.

BTXIII 1.jpg

BTXIII 2.jpg

BTXIII 3.jpg

BTXIII 4.jpg

BTXIII 5.jpg

BTXIII 6.jpg

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