WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION

[Steve1871]

How is that lady one different from your other 3?

[zuluwar2006]

20 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Your very lucky to have so many rare pieces, any wY you could do a photo of all 4 together, if you ever have time, thank you

 

I read that you said UNIT marked 98/05's are scarce to rare, 

I think the reason is that you already HAVE most of them!!😎

Steve, my good friend, 

You make my life better with your comments... 

All the best. 

D. 

[zuluwar2006]

2 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

How is that lady one different from your other 3?

Steve,

The difference between them is on the brass hilt.

The brass hilt has been cut down in one step for 48 mm from rear to a depth of 3 mm on the last bayonet and most rare. 

The others had the cut down less mm and the same depth. 

  I have to measure them again and let you know. 

Regards

D. 

[Simon127]

Hello gents,

 

I regret that I am rusty with forum etiquette and apologise if I'm breaking protocol by posting this on here rather than opening a new thread; I saw the title and it seemed too appropriate not to.  If I offend any sensibilities, please do let me know and I'll create a new post.  

 

I attach some photos of a 1917 dated dated Henckels 1884/98 bayonet that I picked up in the early days of my collecting, aged about 16.    

 

In spite of having had it for quite some time, I have never been able to decipher the crossguard stamp.  If it is some sort of unit or armourer's mark, it's a format I'm rather unfamiliar with as it's missing the letters usually encountered in such markings.  I always assumed that it was a wartime German application but must concede that it's not de riguer.      

 

If any bayonetophiles could shine a light on this mark, I'd be very grateful indeed.  

 

Best wishes,

 

Simon 

[Steve1871]

Welcome Simon 127

Hope you enjoy the GWF here, and stay around a bit. With so many section's and archive, anyone can " drift" around just to find new and interesting thing's you may never have heard of.!

 

Your bayonet, an 84/98 pattern I think, nice shape. I not an expert, but the numbers, look's like it was refurbished 1920's, in Weimar era I think. They made these during Great War, is there a crown and date on the spine of blade, by the cross guard? Usually Weimar era has "1920 or 1921" stamped on cross guard, but not alway's.

Ithers car correct me if I am wrong. Thanks for posting. A spine photo would be great

[Simon127]

Hi Steve,

 

Thanks for your reply.  I hve wondered whether it was a Weimar mark, or possibly from another country entirely.  I know from browsing through this forum that there were some WW1 era marks that seem to follow a similar format to those on mine, but with just numbers there doesn't seem much to go on.  

 

Attached as requested the photo of the spine.  

 

Best,

 

Simon

[Steve1871]

84/98 second pattern/ model, again. Nice bayonet, the numbers on your cross guard, In WW1, they used letters and numbers for unit marking's , like .  3.A.E. 5.23

would read like third ersatz Artillerie regiment, fifth company, 23rd weapon

in 1920's Weimar  government , they scrubbed units off cross guards and only used numbers, as far as I know

[Simon127]

Hi Steve,

 

Many thanks indeed.  I don't support it's possible to know what the Weimar markings relate to?  I imagine far less has been published about these interwar marks.  I always supposed it was a mark put on by another country that might have bought it as post war surplus, so it's nice to think that it was still done 'in house'.      

 

The bayonet is, as you say, a nice one.  I paid about £30 for it but it's always been one of my favourites.  

 

Simon

[Steve1871]

Glad to help, looking forward to maybe another treasure of yours some day

[Simon127]

As requested.  A few other bayonets of mine.  

 

Both the Ersatz bayonets came from the States.  I believe the EB47 was displayed on a wall in a branch of the American Legion, which is the why the edge of the tip was ever so slightly blunted.

 

Simon  

[zuluwar2006]

On 08/09/2019 at 21:29, zuluwar2006 said:

   Here is another extremely rare convertion from an original chassepot french bayonet.

French Chassepot yatagan bayonet adapted for M71 rifle after Franco-Prussian war. Also fits KG1888. Rare example.

   The Germans modified some M66 bayonets to fit their M71, M71/84 and G88 rifles; the modifications involved altering the hilts, crossguards and sometimes the latches; for details with many examples see: Anthony Carter, German bayonets: Vol.III: The ersatz, requisitioned and captured bayonets, 1992.

   The particular bayonet, is the EB 111 on Williams book for ersatz bayonets.

    it has the Back of the blade only partly readable "... de St Etienne Juin 1868".

   Prussian S-shaped crossguard with German unit marking 52.R.E.2.117 (= Infantry Regiment of Alvensleben No. 52, 6th Brandenburg, replacement section, 2nd Kp., Weapon No. 117).

     A black painted steel scabbard with a Prussian new hook for the frog.

     This is a very rare example as the brass hilt has been cut down in one step for 48 mm from rear to a depth of 3 mm and the original crossguard reshaped to match the base of the hilt and fitted with a new IS M/71 "S" shaped steel crossuard, with a full muzzle ring rivetted throught the blade.

       Following the Franco-Prussian War of 1870/71, huge numbers of Mle 1866 Chassepot needle-rifles and bayonets fell into German hands. Some weapons were later altered to fire metallic cartridges while others were placed in stores unaltered along with large quantities of the combustible ammunition. Over time the needle-rifles were sold as surplus as were many of the bayonets. However fairly large numbers of Mle 1866 bayonets were still in stores in 1914, while others were requisitioned from the inventory of surplus weapons held by German commercial arms dealers.

   During 1915/16, the majority of these bayonets were altered in a variety of ways to mount on German issue rifles.

    A smaller number of unaltered examples, were issued as sidearm’s to rear echelon troops.

    German style frog studs had been added to the scabbards years earlier prior to the weapons being placed in inventory to allow them to be issued with German bayonet frogs. 

       Captured bayonets were re-issued with the rifles to the Germans, the scabbard loop was sometimes removed and a frog stud added to fit the German frog.

        Scabbards also exist without the original loop removed and German markings stamped on the reverse side. The frog stud and left side of the cross guard (hilt) were usually stamped with Regimental markings. Original bayonet serial number was ground off the left side of the cross guard and replaced by German regimental markings. 

           A quantity of captured Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1866, were altered to fit the Dreyse Jägerbüchse M/65. When the new 11 mm Mauser Jägerbüchsen M/71 were delivered to the troops in 1875, many Hirchfänger M/65 had their muzzle-ring bushed to accept the smaller barrel diameter. This effectively left Jägerbüchsen M/65 with a shortfall. The conversion for fitting to the Jägerbüchse M/65 was achieved either by opening the split muzzle ring or bore out the muzzle ring to accommodate the larger 21 mm muzzle diameter and the grip slightly relieved at its top rear. The rifle only required a locking slot cut into the top of the bayonet lug and the fore-end of the stock and end-cap relieved to furnish clearance for the top of the grip. 

Here are some more detailed photos from this bayonet. 

On the edge of the blade there is an inspection Gothic stamp. I have never seen anything like this before and I do not know if this has been recorded previously. 

[zuluwar2006]

4 minutes ago, zuluwar2006 said:

Here are some more detailed photos from this bayonet. 

On the edge of the blade there is an inspection Gothic stamp. I have never seen anything like this before and I do not know if this has been recorded previously. 

 

1 minute ago, zuluwar2006 said:

 

 

 

Edited 29 September , 2019 by zuluwar2006

[zuluwar2006]

5 minutes ago, zuluwar2006 said:

 

 

 

[zuluwar2006]

[zuluwar2006]

[zuluwar2006]

The unit marking and the inspection mark from closer and more detailed photos. 

The inspection mark is the only one noticed, until today. 

[zuluwar2006]

Some more detailed photos from the conversion on the brass hilt. 

[zuluwar2006]

On 27/08/2019 at 14:38, zuluwar2006 said:

An extremely rare war time unit marked 98/05 nA sawback erased bayonet, with steel scabbard and frog, dated 1914.

L.A.R. 251.2.B.N.86

Lutschiffer Abteilung/Rekrutendepot 251, 2nd Bataillon

Dated on the spine 1916.

With flashguard. 

Manufacturer is Weysberg Kirshbaum and Co, Solingen. 

A wartime unit marked bayonet, very rarely seen. 

Regards

D. 

 

Some better photos from close range of the unit marking

[trajan]

Hi D, Yes, another nice group of rarities - where do you find them???!!!

[Steve1871]

Hey D'

You been quite for awhile?

On that Chasspot S71 guard, I must be going blind, can not see that strange marking you mention? And here in the U.S., the 98/05 Sawback's alway's bring more money € , than saw removed, guess the " saw" is more impressive / desirable. Is it the same in Europe and the Med.?

[zuluwar2006]

14 minutes ago, Steve1871 said:

Hey D'

You been quite for awhile?

On that Chasspot S71 guard, I must be going blind, can not see that strange marking you mention? And here in the U.S., the 98/05 Sawback's alway's bring more money € , than saw removed, guess the " saw" is more impressive / desirable. Is it the same in Europe and the Med.?

Steve

Here is the inspection mark on the edge of the blade. Is the first time to record it on an ersatz chassepot bayonet, quite rare and strange. 

Erased sawback blades with unit markings are quite scarce and for sure they have seen action during ww1. 

Off course sawback blades are more impressive, but we are collectors and we follow the rarity, not the impression... 

Regards

D. 

[zuluwar2006]

1 hour ago, trajan said:

Hi D, Yes, another nice group of rarities - where do you find them???!!!

Julian

In France and Germany you can get a lot of nice and rare items from Ww1, on flea markets, even today. 

But you have to spend much time searching and now I do not have any time to share with 2 children. 

Regards

D. 

[Steve1871]

Hey D'

 With the "Western Front " being mostly France, it makes sense that flea markets/swap meets would have German bayonets common, and rare types on occasion, but rarly see in American flea markets

 

I do have that 98/04 saw removed that I put on Julian or your post

 

98/05

1. Wartime production 

2. Saw Removed

3.Double Stamped

4.weimher rework

5.Ww2 " Luftwaffe?" Re-issue

6.Orig. 98/05 frog, strap added

 

6 point's for you Demitrios, with all of your rare collection, can you beat me!? With all of your "regular" bayonets, rare versions and ton's of rare markings, it should be easy to find some rare "Gem's" that you could find 6 - 8 different points to make before you even get into your Ersatz

[zuluwar2006]

STEVE

VERY NICE MARKING...

I DO NOT HAVE THIS KIND OF MARKING ON MY COLLECTION, LUCKY YOU!!!!!!

REGARDS

D.

[Steve1871]

Hey Demetrios, I should not be surprised that you have at least one S98m/S, you say you have about 35 ersatz/ plain 98/05 so you you no bother, a lot of us do not even have 10?, I only have three 98/05

. The Unit's, Everybody loves, gives history, a story behind an actual bayonet in all of those horrific battles, but for collectors, even no unit marked bayonet's to show different makers marks, some with maker/finisher a/A. n/A

would still be of interest! There are, I think 60 or 61 makers

 

Just a thought, ( Hint Hint)😳

 

thanks for for all your post ,