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zuluwar2006

WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION

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Steve1871

I was told Jeff Nolls book needs rework, jumps around,I in a truck most of time. Long way from home. I have the old Noll book somewhere in storage. Just not room to have a bunch of book's

 

That said. You put a lot more history in your post than Noll ever said.  There some kind of book on all 251 divisions . Do not know the name of book. Is that where you got that long history?????

Kind of hard th think of unit marked 98/05 as VERY SCARCE when you display a ton of them from your wonderful collection

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trajan
On 14/08/2019 at 11:29, zuluwar2006 said:

... .

2nd ersatz Bataillon of the 55 infanterie Regiment, 2nd Company, number of soldier 290....  It seemed that  armourers on this Infantry Regiment were extremely precautious... 

IMG_20190813_193949.jpg

 

 

 

Interesting use of 'K' for Kompagnie in all of those ones D.! And a nice selection also!!!

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trajan
On 16/08/2019 at 17:44, Steve1871 said:

I was told Jeff Nolls book needs rework, jumps around,I in a truck most of time. Long way from home. I have the old Noll book somewhere in storage. Just not room to have a bunch of book's

 

That said. You put a lot more history in your post than Noll ever said.  There some kind of book on all 251 divisions . Do not know the name of book. Is that where you got that long history?????

Kind of hard th think of unit marked 98/05 as VERY SCARCE when you display a ton of them from your wonderful collection

 

That is my understanding also about Jeff Noll's book. nd I know what you mean about jumping around and small space - even though I live in a flat! But I bet my working space aint much bigger than your cab???!!!

 

Anyway, Jeff Noll does focus mainly on Luger markings, and in the second edition he records some 1,673 marks on all types of weapons but mainly Lugers and pistols. Now, I don't want to boast but my own unit-listing of unit-marked weapons of all kinds as of 28.01.2017 has 4,264 entries, and there have been a host presented here since then thanks to you and Dimitrios.... But, I simply have had no time to update it nor to give it the proper analysis it deserves... I'd like it to issue it in book form but (A), need time to get it up to date, and (B), find a willing publisher, as just for a start I would want to include all the available official documents on marking systems...:(

 

Julian

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Steve1871

I would want an Autographed copy of your Imperial German marking's !!!

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trajan

IF I ever complete it, you shall!

 

Trajan

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zuluwar2006

Dear Julian and Steve,

alternative you an buy the ersatz bayonets book of late Roy Williams.

At the end of this book, a precise catalogue of unit markings exists.

Regards

D.

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Steve1871

Thank's D'. Will have to track down a copy and keep it in the truck

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trajan
7 hours ago, zuluwar2006 said:

... At the end of this book, a precise catalogue of unit markings exists.

 

Indeed, Roy's volume II does give a useful account. But having studied and collected unit markings for some 5-7 years now I have seen that there are so many variations and exceptions to the 'rule', and Roy's listing only covers the most straightforward marks. The thing is that there were some 13 or so official directives of weapons markings issued between 1871 and 1914, each introducing new variations and dispensing with older ones. Then there is the problem of knowing unit organisation and weaponry to fully understand a mark of any given date. E.g., an "L" can be Luftschiffer or Landwehr - OKthe first unit, would not (normally!) be armed with S.98's, but both could use Ersatz... I certainly do not claim to be the expert on these things, but I have often had reason to thank Andy the Prussian and Grey C for correcting my own readings. 

 

Now, how Jeff Noll's work could be improved, and what I would do, would be to include facsimiles of all the relevant instructions just for a start. So to help interpret a unit-marked S. or Gew.98 dated to 1903 according to the correct document. Then to list reported unit markings by unit, with a unit history 1871-1914 provided - Jeff Noll's listing is, as Steve pointed out, not straightforward to use. And so on... 

 

It would be a major task in one way, straightforward in another.

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Steve1871

Julian, you would be the Best to do that book, BUT you have such a buisy life , with to young kid's to raise , your teaching, and trying to stay one step ahead of your student's, and your favorite passion of Archaeology and the Roman life, a person can only do so much

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trajan
On 20/08/2019 at 19:50, Steve1871 said:

Julian, you would be the Best to do that book, BUT you have such a buisy life , with to young kid's to raise , your teaching, and trying to stay one step ahead of your student's, and your favorite passion of Archaeology and the Roman life, a person can only do so much

 

Too true about the busy life! I am five years past thee official UK retirement age, but need to kep going - for school fees especially! I don't know if I am the best person to do a small arms marking book / guide, but I could certainly produce something up to Noll's standard, and beyond when numbers are concerned...

 

Julian

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seitengewehr69

hallo i send fotos from the trail bajonet are you interested whit greetings

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trajan

Thanks, but outside my price range!

 

Julian

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zuluwar2006

An extremely rare war time unit marked 98/05 nA sawback erased bayonet, with steel scabbard and frog, dated 1914.

L.A.R. 251.2.B.N.86

Lutschiffer Abteilung/Rekrutendepot 251, 2nd Bataillon

Dated on the spine 1916.

With flashguard. 

Manufacturer is Weysberg Kirshbaum and Co, Solingen. 

A wartime unit marked bayonet, very rarely seen. 

Regards

D. 

 

IMG_20190827_142450.jpg

IMG_20190827_142438.jpg

IMG_20190827_142504.jpg

IMG_20190827_142535.jpg

IMG_20190827_142617.jpg

IMG_20190827_142639.jpg

IMG_20190827_142554.jpg

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trajan

Lovely! A recent find from your French trip?

 

Julian

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zuluwar2006

Julian yes, 

But I have to mention that prices are over 200 euros now for a unit marked Butcher blade bayonet, when back on 2003, prices were 40 to 60 euros!!! 

A lot of rare bayonets exists out there but you have to be lucky to get them. 

And to have plenty time (which I do not have). 

Regards

D. 

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Steve1871

€200 is cheap for a unit marked 98/05, wish Prices were that over here

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zuluwar2006

Steve, 

I am searching on flea markets and you can find extremely rare items in there. 

But you have to spend much time searching and to have luck. 

I remember once, I found a pfm 71/98 with scabbard in excellent condition, in Bamberg (Bavaria state). 

I was crazy with it. 

The seller, an old man 100 years old, veteran of Ww1, wanted 1.200 german marks (it was 1997, before the currency of euro) and I had on me 800 marks. 

1200 marks are today somewhere between 550 to 600 euros. 

I went to the bank and when I was back, after 2 hours, the bayonet has been sold 😢to an American collector and now he has a wonderful and very rare bayonet. 

For comparison reasons, a pfm 71/98 was sold recently 6.000 euros. 

So luck is the number one rule. 

The second rule is always to carry enough cash money on you, when you are in a flea market 😉

Regards

D. 

 

 

 

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Steve1871

They D'. I not sure what you are talking about??? PFM 71/98??

the 71/98 has no saw teeth

 

the Dreyse M60 had a pipe/quill back, after M71 came in, most of these Bayonet's were bushes to become 60/71,  later they were rehilted  and became 71/98

 

As you know, we both have several S71PFM's.   What are you saying with pfm71/98? I do not understand the €6000??

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zuluwar2006

Steve

This is the pfm 71/98 bayonet with less than a dozen known specimens known until today. 

Regards

D. 

post-20021-0-68433200-1549567897.jpg

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zuluwar2006
On 27/08/2019 at 14:38, zuluwar2006 said:

An extremely rare war time unit marked 98/05 nA sawback erased bayonet, with steel scabbard and frog, dated 1914.

L.A.R. 251.2.B.N.86

Lutschiffer Abteilung/Rekrutendepot 251, 2nd Bataillon

Dated on the spine 1916.

With flashguard. 

Manufacturer is Weysberg Kirshbaum and Co, Solingen. 

A wartime unit marked bayonet, very rarely seen. 

Regards

D. 

 

IMG_20190827_142450.jpg

IMG_20190827_142438.jpg

IMG_20190827_142504.jpg

IMG_20190827_142535.jpg

IMG_20190827_142617.jpg

IMG_20190827_142639.jpg

IMG_20190827_142554.jpg

5ac8ec7b972c6_unnamed(1).jpg.480fc1c1ffaa67ea0927b1b6e6da63de.jpg5ac8ec81c6078_unnamed(2).jpg.a2471d9aaaaea362806316dc2f552a38.jpghere is a similar unit marking on ersatz bayonet, from my collection, again bought in france, during 2013. 

Regards

D. 

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trajan

On prices... Dealers here model their prices on the EU and US and e-bay, etc., thanks to the internet, but I get a Turkish salary, which means I pay between 25-30% more than a person on an 'average' US / EU salary... Still, some surprises do appear sometimes!

 

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zuluwar2006

   Here is another extremely rare convertion from an original chassepot french bayonet.

French Chassepot yatagan bayonet adapted for M71 rifle after Franco-Prussian war. Also fits KG1888. Rare example.

   The Germans modified some M66 bayonets to fit their M71, M71/84 and G88 rifles; the modifications involved altering the hilts, crossguards and sometimes the latches; for details with many examples see: Anthony Carter, German bayonets: Vol.III: The ersatz, requisitioned and captured bayonets, 1992.

   The particular bayonet, is the EB 111 on Williams book for ersatz bayonets.

    it has the Back of the blade only partly readable "... de St Etienne Juin 1868".

   Prussian S-shaped crossguard with German unit marking 52.R.E.2.117 (= Infantry Regiment of Alvensleben No. 52, 6th Brandenburg, replacement section, 2nd Kp., Weapon No. 117).

     A black painted steel scabbard with a Prussian new hook for the frog.

     This is a very rare example as the brass hilt has been cut down in one step for 48 mm from rear to a depth of 3 mm and the original crossguard reshaped to match the base of the hilt and fitted with a new IS M/71 "S" shaped steel crossuard, with a full muzzle ring rivetted throught the blade.

       Following the Franco-Prussian War of 1870/71, huge numbers of Mle 1866 Chassepot needle-rifles and bayonets fell into German hands. Some weapons were later altered to fire metallic cartridges while others were placed in stores unaltered along with large quantities of the combustible ammunition. Over time the needle-rifles were sold as surplus as were many of the bayonets. However fairly large numbers of Mle 1866 bayonets were still in stores in 1914, while others were requisitioned from the inventory of surplus weapons held by German commercial arms dealers.

   During 1915/16, the majority of these bayonets were altered in a variety of ways to mount on German issue rifles.

    A smaller number of unaltered examples, were issued as sidearm’s to rear echelon troops.

    German style frog studs had been added to the scabbards years earlier prior to the weapons being placed in inventory to allow them to be issued with German bayonet frogs. 

       Captured bayonets were re-issued with the rifles to the Germans, the scabbard loop was sometimes removed and a frog stud added to fit the German frog.

        Scabbards also exist without the original loop removed and German markings stamped on the reverse side. The frog stud and left side of the cross guard (hilt) were usually stamped with Regimental markings. Original bayonet serial number was ground off the left side of the cross guard and replaced by German regimental markings. 

           A quantity of captured Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1866, were altered to fit the Dreyse Jägerbüchse M/65. When the new 11 mm Mauser Jägerbüchsen M/71 were delivered to the troops in 1875, many Hirchfänger M/65 had their muzzle-ring bushed to accept the smaller barrel diameter. This effectively left Jägerbüchsen M/65 with a shortfall. The conversion for fitting to the Jägerbüchse M/65 was achieved either by opening the split muzzle ring or bore out the muzzle ring to accommodate the larger 21 mm muzzle diameter and the grip slightly relieved at its top rear. The rifle only required a locking slot cut into the top of the bayonet lug and the fore-end of the stock and end-cap relieved to furnish clearance for the top of the grip. 

7608918.214726293.jpg

chassepot ersatz 71b.jpg

chassepot ersatz 71a.jpg

Edited by zuluwar2006

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Steve1871

Hey D'.  You have shown two of these together on the past, is this your third one??

Still rare, very nice! I should have one before end of the year. Do not know if it will be S nice as yours?

Thanks for sharing

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zuluwar2006

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Steve

I have 3 more. 

This one is the rarer of all and is my 4th ersatz chassepot 1866 bayonet, converted for M 71, 71/84, and Gew 88.

 

Edited by zuluwar2006

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Steve1871

Your very lucky to have so many rare pieces, any wY you could do a photo of all 4 together, if you ever have time, thank you

 

I read that you said UNIT marked 98/05's are scarce to rare, 

I think the reason is that you already HAVE most of them!!😎

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