WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION

[zuluwar2006]

two modified chassepot french 1866 bayonets, for comparison of the differences on them.

both with machined down brass hilt, for making two steps.

the one with the adjusting screw welded and extention to the leaf spring.

this convertion is made for the gewehr 88

the other one modified with two steps, but this is for the gewehr M 71 and M 71/84.

 

[Steve1871]

I still believe the ONE STEM  mod. was for the M.71 Mauser,and the two stem,were for the 88 rifle.

After germany won the Franco/Prussian War,Germany united and held Rifle trials,chose a new rifle, Mauser M.71,all the German stated had a lot of war booty,Chasspot's,Their bayonet's among a lot of other stuff. Besides each "state' keeping their Dreyse and Werder rifles till enough new M.71 were delivered to replace them,conversions were in order,since they were already in inventory,Dreyse M.60 and M.65 PFM"s were converted,as well as the Chasspot' bayonets that were FREE, distributed after the war till enough M.71 bayonets were made,M.71 bayonet production began in late 72'  I think.ONLY a small ammount of chasspots were left in stock for 16 years, 1872 to 88,I see no reason to have a 2 step conv. for M.71,

  But having 1 step conv. on hand when 88 rifle came out,and all new bayonets were to be made,made same sense to add a second step,or mill / shave down a little deeper to fit the new 88 rifle

[zuluwar2006]

Steve,

the extention to leaf spring was made to fit perfectly to a M 71 or M 1/84 rifle, together with the double steps.

regards, D.

[zuluwar2006]

On 08/07/2018 at 13:31, zuluwar2006 said:

a very rare transitional aA sawback 98/05 bayonet with flashguard.

date 1915

manufacturer = SIMSON & CO SUHL

unit marking for 11 Pioneer [Kurhessisches] 3 Ersatz Bataillon

11Pionneer Bataillon was raised on 1.3.1842 and was based in Hannover.

The 98)05 bayonet (aA) at the period before Ww1, it only had a vestigial muzzle ring, often referred to as “high ears”. The bayonet relied on the length of its hilt mounting to fix the blade to its rifle. The bayonet was originally issued in two patterns, one with a saw back and one without. The plain back version was identified as the S98/05. 

At the beginning of WWI it was found that the S98/05 had a problem when used with the Karabiner 98 rifle, the shorter barrel on this model caused burning and damage to the grips as the barrel finished before the vestigial muzzle ring so in 1915 it was decided to fit a steel flash guard to the back of the hilt to protect the grips. 

The bayonet was modified by grinding off most of the vestigial muzzle ring (high ears), reducing the back of the tang and adding a steel flash guard.
To distinguish between newly made bayonets with the flash guard and almost no muzzle ring (“short ears”), newly produced ones were designated S98/05nA (for neuer Art - new type) while the addition of the letters “aA” (alter Art- old type) designated an original bayonet that had been modified.  

The change over between the aA and the nA patterns led to bayonets that were neither one version or the other, these are known as transitional pattern bayonets. This means that you can find “high eared” aA bayonets with flash guards, and “low eared” nA without. The length of the “ears” on the vestigial muzzle ring, along with the date stamp on the spine are used to identify the base model. Transitional S98/05 bayonets are rare. 

[zuluwar2006]

a pfm 1865/71 bayonet [the sixth i have and the last one], not in the best condition, but with original scabbard and unit markings for 11th pioneer bataillon [the scabbard] and the 12th Saxon pioneer Bataillon [the crossguard of the bayonet].

[zuluwar2006]

a very rare unit marking on ersatz bayonet

3.C.E.1.91

for Cadetten Esquadron mayebe???

a very rare undentified unit marking until today.

A similar unit markings is showing on my ww1 bayonet collection, again with an ersatz bayonet, which is photographed by Roy Williams and it is appearing on his book about ersatz bayonets.

[trajan]

On 05/08/2018 at 20:44, zuluwar2006 said:

Julian,

the bavarians had used 2 methods for marking bayonets since the 19th century.

Most bavarian examples for S 71, had the full unit marking including the weapon number, on the left hand sides of the crossguards, and on the right, the bayonet's serail number.

These numbers [serail], were most probably applied by the receiving arsenal.

S 98/05 are often found with 4 figure numbers stamped on either side of the crossguard and occasionaly, even on the quilions.The size of the numbers is small, only 2,5mm in height, and Prussian bayonets bearing such numbers may have been used by the Bavarians.

 

Edited 8 September , 2018 by trajan
DELETD ALL AS DOUBLE /TRIPLE POSTED! SEE NEXT ONE

[trajan]

On 05/08/2018 at 20:44, zuluwar2006 said:

Julian,

the bavarians had used 2 methods for marking bayonets since the 19th century.

Most bavarian examples for S 71, had the full unit marking including the weapon number, on the left hand sides of the crossguards, and on the right, the bayonet's serail number.

These numbers [serail], were most probably applied by the receiving arsenal.

S 98/05 are often found with 4 figure numbers stamped on either side of the crossguard and occasionaly, even on the quilions.The size of the numbers is small, only 2,5mm in height, and Prussian bayonets bearing such numbers may have been used by the Bavarians.

 

Yes, thanks for reminding me on this matter, and the usual (but not invariable) existece of a serial number on the reverse of the crossguard of between five numbers, highest I have is 93890, from Carter.

 

What I am more interested in is the three-four figure serial numbers found on quillons and/or ricassoes, and on scabbards ('lockets' and finials) of normally 98/05's, etc., which do not always have an indication of Bavarian issue. I think I started a thread on this some years back but can't find it now... BUT, I did find this - https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/224398-9805-serial-marked-on-quillon-and-scabbard/ and this - https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/233634-a-9805-aa-with-some-odd-markings/

 

[trajan]

On 09/08/2018 at 13:10, zuluwar2006 said:

An aA 98/05 bayonet plain

Manufacturer G.  HAENEL SUHL

Unit marking  = B.5.R

for 5the Bavarian Regiment

Date =  1915

Prussian cypher on the edge of blade.

 

On 09/08/2018 at 13:29, zuluwar2006 said:

A plain aA 98/05 bayonet

Unit marking = B.11.R.

For 11th Bavarian infantry Regiment

Date = 1915

Prussian cypher

SIMPSON CO SUHL the manufacturer

 

Useful physical confirmation of Bavarian records indicating a BIG shortage of bayonets for their Gew.98 in August 1914, and so presumably supplies of 98/05 being sent there from Prussia in 1915.

[trajan]

On 10/08/2018 at 02:48, Steve1871 said:

Very impressive, like the miner. ( tunnel Rat) as rarest. I asked somewhere before,  98/05 with tall ears, never think made that way

. Look like most of muzzle ring cut away. Is so, What cross guards

with muzzle ring did they come from??

 

Hi Steve,

 

The origin of these "high ears" on the 98/05, etc., goes back to a series of experiments with a Gew. 71 that showed how a muzzle ring affected accuracy of the rifle (muzzle vibrations - the key studies are "Untersuchungen über die Vibration des Gewehrlaufs: I - Schwingungen in verticaler Ehene bei horizontal gehaltenem Gewehr", and "II - Schwingungen in horizontaler Ebene", both by C.Cranz und K.R.Koch, published in  Abhandlungen der Bayerischen Akademie der Wissenschaften - Mathematisch-naturwissenschaftliche Klasse volume 21 for 1900 (I think - I have them on file somewhere if you want the exact year and page numbers!). 

 

Now, when they adapted the Pfm71 for use with the Gew.98, so producing the S.71/98, they cut-off the top of the muzzle-ring leaving the high ears instead - the S.98 does not have high ears as these were made without a muzzle ring following the research by Cranz and Koch as above. The Pfm 71/98 became the inspiration for the 98/02 and later the 98/05, and these simply followed the fashion of 'high ears' as i found on the S.71/98 even though they were only there because they were what was left of the original muzzle ring on these... In archaeology, we call this type of phenomenon a type-fossil - something that existed once and was copied subesquently even though it was not needed.

 

Julian

On 10/08/2018 at 11:47, zuluwar2006 said:

Steve the high ears on 98/05 aA bayonets made this way originally. 

There was never a cut away on muzzle rings for German imperial bayonets for 98/05 bayonet.

The model of 98/05 is a lighter version of 98/02 bayonet and pfm 71/98 prior.

Look at the muzzle on those models.it is originally a"high ear" muzzle ring.

My collection is coming shortly to an end.

I have and 35 bayonets ersatz and 98/05 but without any unit markings.

Those I am not photographing as they are not something important. Regards.D.

 

Whoops! Just saw that zuluwar2006 also answered this point!

[trajan]

On 10/08/2018 at 14:46, zuluwar2006 said:

An ersatz mosin nagant antique bayonet with zinc ersatz scabbard german and leather frog.

Unfortunately no unit markings on it.

But with correct scabbard and frog.

Original paint on the scabbard

 

 

Note that some of these ones with those scabbards used by the Ottoman army - photographic evidence. I have 3 or 4 but none are German marked so I think they may well be German captures sent to the Ottoman Empire with captured Nagant rifles.

[trajan]

On 12/08/2018 at 11:06, zuluwar2006 said:

... After ww1 veterans nickel platEd their bayonets in service, for use as dress bayonets (usually this practice was from the wounded veterans)....

 

Not certain about the nickel-pating or the wounded veterans bit...

 

BUT, a Bavarian order for 10 June 1919 regarding the Reichswehr, and so copying a Berlin order, states that:

 

"The sidearm (= bayonet) of the entire Reichswehr is the same for all ranks and is the kurze Seitengewehr ( which strictly speaking means 'short sidearm' and so a bayonet as opposed to a sword in this context, but basically the S.84/98). It will be worn on the belt. Those with over 25 years service (with double reckoning for the war years) can carry on wearing (weithertragen) their previous sidearm on the old-style belt as Ehrenwaffe (honour weapons)", subject to approval, etc., etc., 

[trajan]

On 15/08/2018 at 21:08, zuluwar2006 said:

A quillback S 1898 sawback bayonet second model

Date = 1906

Manufacturer = ERFURT

FAG marked iron scabbard (rare)

 

 

First ever FAG scabbard I have seen for an S.98! Does it have fraktur marks on the mouth? Most metal scabbards for the S.98 have these although my one example does not...

[trajan]

On 22/08/2018 at 09:40, Steve1871 said:

I still believe the ONE STEM  mod. was for the M.71 Mauser,and the two stem,were for the 88 rifle.

After germany won the Franco/Prussian War,Germany united and held Rifle trials,chose a new rifle, Mauser M.71,all the German stated had a lot of war booty,Chasspot's,Their bayonet's among a lot of other stuff. Besides each "state' keeping their Dreyse and Werder rifles till enough new M.71 were delivered to replace them,conversions were in order,since they were already in inventory,Dreyse M.60 and M.65 PFM"s were converted,as well as the Chasspot' bayonets that were FREE, distributed after the war till enough M.71 bayonets were made,M.71 bayonet production began in late 72'  I think.ONLY a small ammount of chasspots were left in stock for 16 years, 1872 to 88,I see no reason to have a 2 step conv. for M.71,

  But having 1 step conv. on hand when 88 rifle came out,and all new bayonets were to be made,made same sense to add a second step,or mill / shave down a little deeper to fit the new 88 rifle

 

There are several discussion on GBForum on this topic. JPS (J.P.Shehan), a noted collector of rifles and the bayonets that will fit them, had this to say on the matter at https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?343033-German-Chassepot-conversion:

 

"My single-step Mle 1866 Chassepot German conversion fits on both the M71 and M71/84, but NOT on the Gew 88. The example ground down with two steps and the example with the entire back of the grip ground down uniformly will fit all three rifles, including the Gew 88. 

While the clearance is tight compared to most bayonets, none of the backs of the curved blades on my examples interfere with the path of the bullet when it exits the bore. The easiest way to check this is to remove the bolt with the bayonet mounted, then look down the center of the bore from the receiver end. 

In my experience, there is tremendous variation in these conversions and the quality of workmanship is poor compared to some of the other conversions where precise milling replaced the hand ground techniques used on the hilts of most of these bayonets. Per Mike's comment, some of these one-step may fit multiple rifles while others may only fit the M71. 

Unless there is some subtle difference between your bayonet and mine, you have a Mle 1866 Chassepot that has been converted for issue with the M1871 and M1871/84 Mauser rifles. 

[zuluwar2006]

On 08/09/2018 at 16:10, trajan said:

 

First ever FAG scabbard I have seen for an S.98! Does it have fraktur marks on the mouth? Most metal scabbards for the S.98 have these although my one example does not...

Julian

No markings or stamps on the iron mouth of the scabbard

On 08/09/2018 at 16:01, trajan said:

 

Not certain about the nickel-pating or the wounded veterans bit...

 

BUT, a Bavarian order for 10 June 1919 regarding the Reichswehr, and so copying a Berlin order, states that:

 

"The sidearm (= bayonet) of the entire Reichswehr is the same for all ranks and is the kurze Seitengewehr ( which strictly speaking means 'short sidearm' and so a bayonet as opposed to a sword in this context, but basically the S.84/98). It will be worn on the belt. Those with over 25 years service (with double reckoning for the war years) can carry on wearing (weithertragen) their previous sidearm on the old-style belt as Ehrenwaffe (honour weapons)", subject to approval, etc., etc., 

Julian

I am amazed from your knowledge on those matters!!!! 

Regards

D. 

[zuluwar2006]

On 08/09/2018 at 15:44, trajan said:

 

Note that some of these ones with those scabbards used by the Ottoman army - photographic evidence. I have 3 or 4 but none are German marked so I think they may well be German captures sent to the Ottoman Empire with captured Nagant rifles.

Yes

This is a quite true story about, although we have no written documents for this until today. 

Regards

D. 

[zuluwar2006]

On 08/09/2018 at 16:21, trajan said:

 

There are several discussion on GBForum on this topic. JPS (J.P.Shehan), a noted collector of rifles and the bayonets that will fit them, had this to say on the matter at https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?343033-German-Chassepot-conversion:

 

"My single-step Mle 1866 Chassepot German conversion fits on both the M71 and M71/84, but NOT on the Gew 88. The example ground down with two steps and the example with the entire back of the grip ground down uniformly will fit all three rifles, including the Gew 88. 

While the clearance is tight compared to most bayonets, none of the backs of the curved blades on my examples interfere with the path of the bullet when it exits the bore. The easiest way to check this is to remove the bolt with the bayonet mounted, then look down the center of the bore from the receiver end. 

In my experience, there is tremendous variation in these conversions and the quality of workmanship is poor compared to some of the other conversions where precise milling replaced the hand ground techniques used on the hilts of most of these bayonets. Per Mike's comment, some of these one-step may fit multiple rifles while others may only fit the M71. 

Unless there is some subtle difference between your bayonet and mine, you have a Mle 1866 Chassepot that has been converted for issue with the M1871 and M1871/84 Mauser rifles. 

Our fellow collector Steve has excellent collection and knowledge on Ww1 imperial german bayonets. 

I agree absolutely with the opinion of Steve but also of great collector J. P. Sheehan about the matter of conversions with steps and yours, Julian. 

Regards

D. 

[trajan]

On 08/09/2018 at 15:44, trajan said:

 

12 hours ago, zuluwar2006 said:

Yes

This is a quite true story about, although we have no written documents for this until today. 

Regards

D. 

On 08/09/2018 at 15:44, trajan said:

 

Note that some of these NAGANT SOCKET  BAYONETS with those scabbards used by the Ottoman army - photographic evidence. I have 3 or 4 but none are German marked so I think they may well be German captures sent to the Ottoman Empire with captured Nagant rifles.

 

Have a look at: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/261673-ottoman-soldiers-with-mosin–nagants/?tab=comments#comment-2651102 - photographs there of Ottoman soldiers with Nagant Rifles and socket bayonets in scabbards!

 

Julian

 

PS - D, thanks for the compliments! Much of what I know about bayonets has come from GWF but greatly improved by having formed a reasonably good library over the years. If truth be told, I would happily retire and focus my work and studies on these pointed things, but with two young kids to feed, clothe and educate - and a wife with a credit card as well(!)...

 

[zuluwar2006]

A 84/98 PLAIN BAYONET WITH FLASHGUARD.

NO DATE ON THE SPINE OF THE BLADE.

MANUFACTURER J. HENCKELS WITH TWINS LOGO.

UNIT MARKING FOR FELD ARTILLERY 4TH BRIGADE

IV.A.B.2.34

A WAR TIME UNIT MARKING VERY RARE SEEN.

SAME UNIT MARKING ON THE IRON SCABBARD.

A RARE MATCHING BAYONET WITH SCABBARD.

[zuluwar2006]

an aA sawback 98/05 bayonet

manufacturer V.Schilling and Suhl

date = 1914

unit markings same with the leather scabbard

3.M.P.K.46

for Marine Pioneer Kompagnie

a very rare matching set.

The Marines unit markings are extremely rare.

[Steve1871]

Very nice!😋 I have been wondering if all Great War 98/05 we're talking scabbards , I like the leather body more, this first pic's I remember seeing of war year issue/ unit marked leather ones, Well Done!

  On leather body 98/05 scabbards has steel fittings or did original have brass fittings???! Anybody know ? Thanks for posting these pics!

[zuluwar2006]

Another rare unit marked ersatz plain bayonet. 

Ersatz unit marked bayonets were 0,5%,that means 1 unit marked bayonet in 200 bayonets. 

This particular ersatz bayonet is marked E. L. I. R.39.1118

Which is for the 39th Ersatz Landwehr Infantry Regiment number of soldier 1118

A quite rare unit marked ersatz bayonet, with a wartime unit marking. 

[zuluwar2006]

On 07/09/2018 at 21:00, zuluwar2006 said:

a very rare unit marking on ersatz bayonet

3.C.E.1.91

for Cadetten Esquadron mayebe???

a very rare undentified unit marking until today.

A similar unit markings is showing on my ww1 bayonet collection, again with an ersatz bayonet, which is photographed by Roy Williams and it is appearing on his book about ersatz bayonets.

Some more detailed photos of the rare unit marking and from the iron handle.

An unrecorded version. 

Regards, D. 

[trajan]

On 19/09/2018 at 08:07, zuluwar2006 said:

an aA sawback 98/05 bayonet

manufacturer V.Schilling and Suhl

date = 1914

unit markings same with the leather scabbard

3.M.P.K.46

for Marine Pioneer Kompagnie

a very rare matching set.

The Marines unit markings are extremely rare.

 A VERY nice piece!

Julian

[trajan]

On 19/09/2018 at 08:07, zuluwar2006 said:

an aA sawback 98/05 bayonet

manufacturer V.Schilling and Suhl

date = 1914

 

 

I read the Original Post too fast and this one came back to me... What is this 'first-use' marking? It is on the left side, so should be first unit it was used by... Very badly struck out, but there is a 'K' and what looks to be an 'S' there...