G.R.U. CONCENTRATION SHEETS- GERMAN CASUALTIES ET AL?

[Guest]

 

   .

Edited 6 May , 2018 by Guest

[AOK4]

Hello,

 

The British graves services concentrated any German bodies they found onto designated German cemeteries (new or existing). They were transferred into German care in Belgium from 1926 on.

In France, French war graves services for a large part created new concentration cemeteries to bury French and German bodies (you can easily spot them as one half is French and one half is German or they are very close to one another f.i. Rancourt). The French state took care of German war graves until 1971 (IIRC) but with the support of the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge. In 1971 (IIRC), German cemeteries in France were handed over to the Volksbund.

No German searchers were allowed to help in accordance with articles 225 and 226 of the Versailles Treaty, only a commission by an allied or associated government could work.

 

Jan

Edited 4 April , 2018 by AOK4

[thetrenchrat22]

I think that is a very good question, who I don’t have an answer for.  

 

I would say contact the CWGC and see what they have to say in the matter

[Bardess]

Although the attached article is predominantly about British and Commonwealth war dead, I feel it is right to place it here

 

 

WW1 exhumation and reburial attempts.pdf

[egbert]

3 hours ago, AOK4 said:

.....

No German searchers were allowed to help in accordance with articles 225 and 226 of the Versailles Treaty, only a commission by an allied or associated government could work.

 

Jan

Irony on: so the French broke the Versailles Treaty when they forced labor tens of thousands of German PoW's to search, recover and bury the dead from the battlefields after the war. Irony off.

[green_acorn]

Jan and Egbert,

 

Looking at the relevant article of the Versailles Treaty, it doesn't say the Germans couldn't be used in searching, using German PW's awaiting repatriation would have been a quite legitimate use of their time. Importantly searches could only be undertaken by a Commission/s appointed by the Allies or an Associated Government, which nixes the Germans being involved. More importantly, because the battlefields are in France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Italy, what can be inferred from the articles is that the Germans could not direct, manage, command etc a search on the territory of another nation. This is a copy of the relevant articles from the Brigham Young University Library:

 

GRAVES.

ARTICLE 225.

The Allied and Associated Governments and the German Government will cause to be respected and maintained the graves of the soldiers and sailors buried in their respective territories.

They agree to recognise any Commission appointed by an Allied or Associated Government for the purpose of identifying, registering, caring for or erecting suitable memorials over the said graves and to facilitate the discharge of its duties.

Furthermore they agree to afford, so far as the provisions of their laws and the requirements of public health allow, every facility for giving effect to requests that the bodies of their soldiers and sailors may be transferred to their own country.

ARTICLE 226.

The graves of prisoners of war and interned civilians who are nationals of the different belligerent States and have died in captivity shall be properly maintained in accordance with Article 225 of the present Treaty.

The Allied and Associated Governments on the one part and the German Government on the other part reciprocally undertake also to furnish to each other:

(1) A complete list of those who have died, together with all information useful for identification;

(2) All information as to the number and position of the graves of all those who have been buried without identification.

 

Cheers,

Hendo

[AOK4]

I didn't mean that German PoWs couldn't be used by the GRUs etc, but that no official German organisation could be involved in the searching. I know the matter very well as I have written a book about the German cemeteries here in Flanders.

 

About the information: the Germans handed over copies of all relevant graves lists etc., yet information about the unidentified Germans that were buried by the Allies was extremely minimal, not to say non-existant. Most of the burials by Allied services after the war were "unknown German soldiers".

 

Jan

Edited 4 April , 2018 by AOK4

[Perth Digger]

GIven the time constraints, the money constraints and the extreme unpleasantness of the job, it would not be altogether surprising if less attention was paid to the German bodies recovered than to those of the Allies post-war. It was possibly also the same while the war was on, during battlefield clearances, on both sides. More likely to rummage around for the ID of one of your own? This is just guesswork, of course, but with a little understanding of human nature.

 

Mike

[green_acorn]

Jan,

 

My apologies for my misunderstanding.

 

Re your observation about Allied record keeping and handover, it doesn't surprise me, British Empire record keeping standards were never as good as the German.

 

Cheers,

Chris

[AOK4]

Sorry, but I don't accept that excuse, Perth Digger. The Germans did huge efforts for the Allied war dead during the war (when they were short of work force and building materials) even building some magnificent cemeteries with only French dead in Southern Belgium (some of these still exist today).

 

Jan

[Perth Digger]

Not an excuse, Jan, just an observation. 

 

Mike

[themonsstar]

Some of the early death returns would have gone to the Red Cross information Society as the British War Graves units (GRU) did not come about until 1916  

[Bardess]

^
Excellent! Thanks for posting, themonsstar

[Perth Digger]

Mons

Can you please tell me in which file that report can be found?

 

Thanks

 

Mike

[AOK4]

On 10-4-2018 at 17:55, themonsstar said:

Some of the early death returns would have gone to the Red Cross information Society as the British War Graves units (GRU) did not come about until 1916  

 

 

 

Foreign death reports always had to be reported to the Red Cross as they informed the other side, IIRC.

[spof]

On 22/04/2018 at 12:30, Perth Digger said:

Mons

Can you please tell me in which file that report can be found?

 

Thanks

 

Mike

 

Mike

 

That is a sample of list of German War Dead and their Effects. There are 2 sample lists held by TNA in WO 900/43 and 44. These cover Sept 1914 to August 1915 and from 28 Dec 1918 onwards. The other lists were, unfortunately, destroyed.

 

Glen