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Remembered Today:

Segregation Camp Eggbuckland Plymouth any info ?


beestonboxer

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I have been trying to find some information on a segregation camp that was at Eggbuckland Crownhill Plymouth, I have a photograph of Officers stationed there in 1915 and correspondence from Buckingham Palace addressed to the Commandant  Segregation Camp Eggbuckland. I have been unable to find any information on a segregation camp at Eggbuckland the photo of the Officers has written on the back taken at Eggbuckland Crownhill Plymouth, it looks to been taken at Crownhill Fort. The only information I have found about Crownhill Fort in WW1 is that it was used as a recruitment and transport centre for troops being sent to the fronts in Turkey and Africa.

Any help much appreciated. This is another part of the collection I have from Major A.G Boldero who I have already made several posts about on the forum it seems he photographically  documented his service well in various postings he served in during the war. The letters from  Buckingham Palace have only recently come to light the return correspondence from the palace is from Lady Mary Trefusis ( Lady of the bed chamber to Queen Mary) on behalf of Queen Mary. From the contents of the fist letter received from the Palace it looks as though then Captain Boldero Officer Commanding the Segregation camp sent a letter to the palace offering a photograph of the men serving at the camp, the reply was an acceptance of the photograph from the Queen.

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All I can offer is that Crownhill Fort and Eggbuckland Keep are 1.68Km apart as the crow flies, both would be contenders for the photo but why refer to 'Crownhill, Eggbuckland' when they are 2 different places. Perhaps Crownhill was larger back then so seemed a better address for Eggbuckland Keep.

No idea what a segregation camp is.

TEW

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I can find nothing in Chris Robinson!s 'Plymouth's Great War' (2014). But then, the book does not have an index! 

 

If you don't know of him, Chris Robinson is a very well -known artist and local historian of Plymouth. You could try his email address, which is on his websire:

 

http://www.chrisrobinson.co.uk/

 

I've emailed him before on a local history matter and he replied quite quickly.

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Could there be a connection with between the Segregation Camp and  Eggbuckland Hospital - a specialist VD Hospital for 30 officers and 180 men?

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Racial segregation.

 

See here.

 

Moonraker

 

EDIT: returning to this topic after a few minutes, I wonder why Captain Boldero thought the Queen might be interested in a photograph of him and his officers? (Obviously it was easier for her lady-in-waiting to say "yes" than "no".) With due respect to the men (who may have been injured in battle and rendered unfit for further fighting), theirs was hardly a posting to boast about, even allowing for the mores of a century ago. It would be interesting to see Boldero's service record.

 

Moonraker

Edited by Moonraker
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  Both Egg Buckland and Crownhill are very close to where I grew up as a kid. Never heard of it's use as a "segregation" camp.   Will be most interested in whatturns up on this.  

Beestonboxer- the way into this may be from the other end= what was Boldero up to during the war?  TNA has him listed as an officer of the Somerset Light Infantry-if it is correct. I will have a look at his service file in the next couple of days.

   I would doubt that a STD hospital would have regimental personnel,as opposed to being run by RAMC officers.  Likewise, I am not aware if South African Labour Corps came in through Plymouth-possible but surely usually straight off to France?

 

       Could it be that the answer might be simpler?  I live now in the eastern part of London-and the commemorations for D Day brought up recollections of local people. On 6th June 1944, there was much traffic on the roads as second-wave troops came into the camps in the docks then empty after the assault troops had left. Could it be that the term just means a camp where troops for overseas service were segregated out-and not allowed to leave?. Anthony Burgess has a similar story of the Second World War ( in his memoir)s about the army being loath to let people out of camp just before embarkation as the risk of desertion was greater. As Crownhill  is easily guarded to keep people in, could it just have meant a "secure" camp???

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Pedantically the South African Labour Corps was not formed until 1916 and members did not reach Europe until the end of that year. The Segregation Camp was in existence by March 1915, which seems quite early in the war to assemble and transport a "native" labour force.

 

Just checked The Times for the war years: just three hits for "segregation camp", two being metaphorical in the context of VD, the other relating to a medical segregation camp in India. Perhaps after all Eggbuckland was a form of isolation camp for new arrivals in England who might have a contagious disease. (There were a small number of cases like this in Wiltshire camps.) ANZAC troops did not begin to arrive in England until 1916 and I don't think there was any health  problem with Canadians - perhaps the camp quarantined Regular troops returning from India?

 

Moonraker

Edited by Moonraker
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I taught at Eggbuckland Community College for many years and very close to Eggbuckland are Fort Austin, Eggbuckland Keep and Bowden Fort which are three of the many Palmerston Forts surrounding Plymouth. So it may not be Crown Hill Fort as Eggbuckland Keep is obviously in Eggbuckland. Fort Austin and Bowden Fort are also closer to Eggbuckland than Crownhill Fort and Fort Austin appears on the old OS maps of Egg Buckland as it was then known.

Edited by Lawryleslie
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Thanks for the input so far I thought this may be a post where more questions would be asked on both the Question of a Segregation Camp at Eggbuckland and the contents of the letter, I also thought why would he consider the Queen being interested in a photo of men at this posting but it seems not only did the Queen accept the offer of a photo but that the men would be in need of gifts as described in the second letter.

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Searching the National Archives catalogue, I spot a reference to a segregation camp at Seaford, Sussex, and several other references in FO 383/ files suggesting that officers of the German Mercantile Marine were segregated from other civilian PoWs - which might make sense in that Eggbuckland was so close to Plymouth - perhaps the camp was for sailors interned at Plymouth on the outbreak of war. Graham Mark, Prisoners of War in British Hands during WWI, notes that at the end of November 1914 the Government announced a policy of separating combatant PoWs from civilian internees. See Hansard, November 23, 1914, vol 68, col 787 - the archives website is playing up at the moment.

 

Change of tack, following reading the second letter:

 

The reference in this letter that, when done with, the cards could be burned, suggests they might become infected. And had the inmates been internees, the Queen's gift would have shown surprising sympathy!

 

There might be something in the local newspapers, though it was around the end of 1914 that the flow of useful information to local historians dried up because of censorship.

 

Moonraker

Edited by Moonraker
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18 minutes ago, Lawryleslie said:

I taught at Eggbuckland Community College for many years and very close to Eggbuckland are Fort Austin, Eggbuckland Keep and Bowden Fort which are three of the many Palmerston Forts surrounding Plymouth. So it may not be Crown Hill Fort as Eggbuckland Keep is obviously in Eggbuckland. Fort Austin and Bowden Fort are also closer to Eggbuckland than Crownhill Fort and Fort Austin appears on the old OS maps of Egg Buckland as it was then known.

 

  Well, Uncle George will pick us both up on this- I always thought the main isolation hospital was Scott- which, I believe, was more properly a Poor Law hospital, rather than a military one-and should show up as such.

    The whole topic of what happened to soldiers coming back from far-away postings with tropical diseases is a blank with me-it may well be that  finding out what happened to soldiers in peacetime when they disembarked at Plymouth/Devonport may be the key to it's wartime use as well

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1 hour ago, HERITAGE PLUS said:

Could there be a connection with between the Segregation Camp and  Eggbuckland Hospital - a specialist VD Hospital for 30 officers and 180 men?

Perhaps the Segregation Camp became the VD hospital?  It must have been quite a large building to accommodate all those patients.

 

Moonraker

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  Well, Uncle George will pick us both up on this- I always thought the main isolation hospital was Scott- which, I believe, was more properly a Poor Law hospital, rather than a military one-and should show up as such.

    The whole topic of what happened to soldiers coming back from far-away postings with tropical diseases is a blank with me-it may well be that  finding out what happened to soldiers in peacetime when they disembarked at Plymouth/Devonport may be the key to it's wartime use as well

Sorry mate I’ve no idea where the isolation hospital was although it could have been Scott Hospital which was and still is in Devonport. I was suggesting that the photo of the group of officers could have been taken at any one of the four Palmerston Forts around Eggbuckland, namely Bowden Fort, Fort Austin, Crownhill Fort or Eggbuckland Keep. 

Incidentally the OP could look at the Plymouth & West Devon Records Office Website which may have records of the 4 Forts and Scott Hospital. Although Scott Hospital is around 4 miles from Eggbuckland so unlikely to be the link to Eggbuckland Segregation Camp. Unfortunately, although you can see the P&SD Records Office Archives Register online, a visit is required to view any documents.

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18 minutes ago, Lawryleslie said:

 ... Scott Hospital which was and still is in Devonport. ...

 

The pedant would point out that Scott Hospital did stand within the old County Borough of Devonport; but by no means is it "still in Devonport". It is in Beacon Park, which is a long way from what is now understood as 'Devonport'. (I suspect you will accuse me of discovering this via a diligent perusal of Wikipedia.)

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1 hour ago, Uncle George said:

 

The pedant would point out that Scott Hospital did stand within the old County Borough of Devonport; but by no means is it "still in Devonport". It is in Beacon Park, which is a long way from what is now understood as 'Devonport'. (I suspect you will accuse me of discovering this via a diligent perusal of Wikipedia.)

Whilst your observation that Scott Hospital is not in Devonport is correct, your source of information regarding its true location is wrong. Although on Beacon Park Road, Scott Hospital lies in the district of North Prospect.

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31 minutes ago, Lawryleslie said:

 Although on Beacon Park Road, Scott Hospital lies in the district of North Prospect.

 

I'd disagree. But at least we have established that Scott Hospital is not in Devonport.

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42 minutes ago, Uncle George said:

 

I'd disagree. But at least we have established that Scott Hospital is not in Devonport.

 

     Well aware it is in Plymouth Dock!!  - It was just a suggestion to spur the query that an "isolation" hospital for troops (and navy personnel) must have been  catered for somewhere in  the area (remember- as I used to live Plympton way- that Plympton St.Mary used to come as far in as Mutley Plain). In London, there were the hulks for a long time at Greenwich - may have been the same there. 

  An intriguing one.

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10 hours ago, Uncle George said:

 

I'd disagree. But at least we have established that Scott Hospital is not in Devonport.

Just to put to bed this disagreement this is a map of the Regeneration Area of North Prospect clearly showing the site of Scott Hospital on the junction of North Prospect Road and Beacon Park Road,  as I have shown.....

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Edited by Lawryleslie
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It is a long shot but weren't German submarine crews segregated from 1915 on by order of Churchill?

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12 hours ago, Uncle George said:

 

The pedant would point out that Scott Hospital did stand within the old County Borough of Devonport; but by no means is it "still in Devonport". It is in Beacon Park, which is a long way from what is now understood as 'Devonport'. (I suspect you will accuse me of discovering this via a diligent perusal of Wikipedia.)

Quite correct. I used to live down the road.

By the way, the name North Prospect is fairly new. In WW1 times and until at least the end of the 1960s it was Swilly. Adjust road names accordingly.

Edited by healdav
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1 hour ago, healdav said:

By the way, the name North Prospect is fairly new. In WW1 times and until at least the end of the 1960s it was Swilly. Adjust road names accordingly.

Edited 1 hour ago by healdav

 

 

    You and me too-   North prospect came in c.1970- after Western Approach was added to the 3 main drags of Abercrombie and Watson=  when they started knocking other stuff down just north of that, it suddenly got labelled North Prospect.  But That's all in the past- I have been away so long that years ago when I went along to Paddington and asked for a ticket to "Plymouth North Road", the ticket clerk had to get an older colleague over to find out what I was talking about. Ah, happy days.

   Yperman- I would think it unlikely that German naval personnel would be kept  near a naval base.  May get to see Boldero's officer file later.

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    You and me too-   North prospect came in c.1970- after Western Approach was added to the 3 main drags of Abercrombie and Watson=  when they started knocking other stuff down just north of that, it suddenly got labelled North Prospect.  But That's all in the past- I have been away so long that years ago when I went along to Paddington and asked for a ticket to "Plymouth North Road", the ticket clerk had to get an older colleague over to find out what I was talking about. Ah, happy days.

   Yperman- I would think it unlikely that German naval personnel would be kept  near a naval base.  May get to see Boldero's officer file later.

Have you noticed how the place names of our city tend to move? 'Bretonside' was once east of Martin's Gate, until the bus station stole the name, and 'Bretonside' followed it; 'Pennycomequick' was once the hill going passed where North Road Station came to be built - the roundabout at its foot took its name, to which it now belongs; but the most egregious example is 'Barbican Leisure Park', firmly in the east of Coxside and some way from the Barbican (once part of the Castle).

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37 minutes ago, Uncle George said:

 

Have you noticed how the place names of our city tend to move? 'Bretonside' was once east of Martin's Gate, until the bus station stole the name, and 'Bretonside' followed it; 'Pennycomequick' was once the hill going passed where North Road Station came to be built - the roundabout at its foot took its name, to which it now belongs; but the most egregious example is 'Barbican Leisure Park', firmly in the east of Coxside and some way from the Barbican (once part of the Castle).

 

  Yes- very noticeable when I return. The changes in the Barbican area are the most noticeable. I am trying to dig out the little book about Plymouth fortifications that I have buried away somewhere here- Don't remember reading anything about "segregation" in it but let me just check. Also, English Heritage did some work and some stuff on the Palmerston Follies- it must be on the net somewhere. Their researcher used to be one of my bookshop customers- did quite a bit on the stuff built by the Americans in WW2-such as the light railway that matched the old "tram lines" from Marsh Mills up to Cann Quarry- about which I knew nothing.  The only name that keeps popping up for me is Tregantle, which was a battalion training depot for some units during the war, let alone it's other uses.

   There was a small diary published in a local magazine recently (Cockney Ancestor, I think) of a man who went out to East Africa from Devonport- Will try to check that to see if it mentions where he was when he came to the Great City.

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Two webpages which mention Segregation Camps

"Reference to segregation camps in WWI military records almost invariably means that the soldier or soldiers concerned had had contact with some contagious disease, - measles for example. Sometimes this was applied to solitary men arriving back in France from UK home leave, when it was discovered that the man had visited an area where there was an outbreak of some notifiable disease. On other occasions whole Battalions or even Brigades were "segregated" if cases of disease were discovered amongst men of the unit, - this is a fairly common thing to find in unit war diaries when the men have just completed area voyage and have been cooped-up together with contagious men".

http://connectingspirits.com.au/pages/soldiers/2012-soldiers/magnus-george-cheyne.php

 

"Segregation Camp: An area where newly arrived soldiers were quarantined to ensure that they had no communicable diseases".

http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/transcripts/cushnie-Diary-Notes.asp

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Uncle George said:

 

Have you noticed how the place names of our city tend to move? 'Bretonside' was once east of Martin's Gate, until the bus station stole the name, and 'Bretonside' followed it; 'Pennycomequick' was once the hill going passed where North Road Station came to be built - the roundabout at its foot took its name, to which it now belongs; but the most egregious example is 'Barbican Leisure Park', firmly in the east of Coxside and some way from the Barbican (once part of the Castle).

Pennycome quick was originally the road which ran from the roundabout up the gorge past the Post Office (still there?). The original name was Penig cwm queek, i.e. Narrow gorge creek, which that road is. The water used to come up to and past the roundabout.

Bretonside was originally where the bus station is or was. The sea used to come up to about halfway towards it. The beach extended well up the the bus station. I remember helping excavate the original beach in about 1963 when the area was not built on, and was amazed to dig down about 15/20 feet befre we found the bottom. It was a rubbish tip which still hade medieval and Tudor debris. In fact, we even found a drain down to the sea which someone had built in possibly the 16th century after digging into the rubbish tip

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