drumbobs72 Posted 1 April , 2018 Share Posted 1 April , 2018 Hi, all.. Just required what I think to be quite a nice Ross bayonet, with good scabbard, with a hole in back for tunic hook....Has the usual circled arrow, manufacture and inspection marks, its dated 12/12, although it has some marks I would like some help with please on the rear of the Pommel and the rear of the scabbard? I'm hoping they may be unit/reg marks? Please see pictures.. The rear pommel marks are crossed out but read GG FG, 232, then 7.14 which I presume is another date? The rear of scabbard reads C then D then 9 12 (another date I gather) then G 33 B D or R D with 32 below. Clearer on photos. Any help would be very much appreciated, Cheers..Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 1 April , 2018 Share Posted 1 April , 2018 Paul, You have a nice-looking Ross MK. II there, denoted by the '11' on the pommel. Not a circle, but C(anada) with the broad arrow; also shown on scabbard near the seam. Made in December, 1912 (12 / 12). Crown/4 = inspector stamp; also on grip. The scabbard shows G 33rd/32 which I take to indicate the G company of the 33rd Infantry Bn (if the Canadian Militia was still organised on an 8-company basis in 1912) and rifle or rack number 32. G G FG is beyond my ken ! Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggoner Posted 1 April , 2018 Share Posted 1 April , 2018 GGFG = Governor General’s Foot Guards...an Ottawa unit. All the best, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumbobs72 Posted 1 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 1 April , 2018 1 hour ago, JMB1943 said: Paul, You have a nice-looking Ross MK. II there, denoted by the '11' on the pommel. Not a circle, but C(anada) with the broad arrow; also shown on scabbard near the seam. Made in December, 1912 (12 / 12). Crown/4 = inspector stamp; also on grip. The scabbard shows G 33rd/32 which I take to indicate the G company of the 33rd Infantry Bn (if the Canadian Militia was still organised on an 8-company basis in 1912) and rifle or rack number 32. G G FG is beyond my ken ! Regards, JMB Thanks JMB, really helpful...Just trying to piece it all together!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumbobs72 Posted 1 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 1 April , 2018 15 minutes ago, Waggoner said: GGFG = Governor General’s Foot Guards...an Ottawa unit. All the best, Gary Thanks Gary, very helpful, would you know how that ties in with the date of 7.14 below in the same place and with the info JMB has kindly provided too regarding the marks on the scabbard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 1 April , 2018 Share Posted 1 April , 2018 (edited) Waggoner, Nice one with the GG FG !! Is there a listing of these obscure Canadian units somewhere, or is this the result of accumulated knowledge ? Do you have any opinion on whether the 8-coy organisation was still in place in 1912 (if it ever was in place in Canada)? Regards, JMB Edited 1 April , 2018 by JMB1943 add info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggoner Posted 1 April , 2018 Share Posted 1 April , 2018 JMB, This link should take you to the 1914 Canadian Militia List...all units are shown there - . http://contentdm.ucalgary.ca/cdm/pageflip/collection/cmh/id/48838/type/compoundobject/show/48124/cpdtype/monograph/pftype/image#page/320/mode/2up You could look for a GGFG history to see if itbsays when they were using Ross rifles. All the best, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 1 April , 2018 Share Posted 1 April , 2018 Gary, Many thanks for sharing this invaluable info !!! Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 April , 2018 Share Posted 1 April , 2018 Yes, nice looking bayonet and great scabbard and frog - and information on Canadian units also welcome! Time for bed for the boys over here so looking forward to more when I next log in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangeRover Posted 2 April , 2018 Share Posted 2 April , 2018 (edited) Very nice bayonet, especially as it retains its original factory profile. Many Mk II Ross bayonets were ground down in the field to create a sharper angle at the point to increase penetration. You'll see all sorts of variation in the profile as a result. As has been mentioned, the GGFG stamp on the pommel is the Governer General's Foot Guards - with the bayonet entering stores in July 1914 and associated with rifle number 232. You can see the earlier, 1912, G 33 B D or R D with 32 below it being struck out with the 'propeller' mark < * >. The '32' would represent the rifle the bayonet went with. As for the G33BD or G33RD...I'm at a bit of a loss. If the 9/12 is an acceptance date it predates the start of deliveries of the Mark III Ross (the rifle for which this bayonet was provided) - stated as December of 1912 in "The Ross Rifle Story". Edited 2 April , 2018 by RangeRover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 2 April , 2018 Share Posted 2 April , 2018 28 minutes ago, RangeRover said: As has been mentioned, the GGFG stamp on the pommel is the Governer General's Foot Guards - with the bayonet entering stores in July 1914 and associated with rifle number 232. Is July 1914 based on 7 14 ? I must admit that I had read that as rifle/rack number 714. Regards,JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumbobs72 Posted 2 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 2 April , 2018 8 hours ago, RangeRover said: Very nice bayonet, especially as it retains its original factory profile. Many Mk II Ross bayonets were ground down in the field to create a sharper angle at the point to increase penetration. You'll see all sorts of variation in the profile as a result. As has been mentioned, the GGFG stamp on the pommel is the Governer General's Foot Guards - with the bayonet entering stores in July 1914 and associated with rifle number 232. You can see the earlier, 1912, G 33 B D or R D with 32 below it being struck out with the 'propeller' mark < * >. The '32' would represent the rifle the bayonet went with. As for the G33BD or G33RD...I'm at a bit of a loss. If the 9/12 is an acceptance date it predates the start of deliveries of the Mark III Ross (the rifle for which this bayonet was provided) - stated as December of 1912 in "The Ross Rifle Story". Dear RangeRover, thank you for looking at this for me..appreciated. Its certainly a puzzler. The date on the Pommel is 12/12, so would this would be in line with the deliveries? As for the 33RD, if it is RD, on scabbard, could this be to do with the 33rd Huron Regiment??? Its the only '33' I can find of this period. It wouldn't be 33rd Infantry Btn of course. So do you think this bayonet in whatever form entered WW1 service? with 2nd Battalion? East Ont Reg, CEF? It clearly states 7.14 on end of Pommel, so just pre war. Do you know why these numbers are crossed out here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumbobs72 Posted 2 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 2 April , 2018 I have found another faint mark on scabbard, see image..looks like 1909..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangeRover Posted 2 April , 2018 Share Posted 2 April , 2018 (edited) Regarding the scabbard...<DOH>...that is what I get for posting late in the day. The 1909 date on the scabbard indicates it's an earlier Mk I scabbard, as used for the Mk II Ross. There was another clue in your first set of photos that I missed. That being the depth of the belt loop. The Mk II scabbard has a longer loop. The bayonet and scabbard have come together at some point in their history - not unusual and something I should have considered. The circular marks on the scabbard are more C-broad arrows. JMB1943, my assertion about the 7 14 being a date is because of the punch 'dot' between the 7.14. Drumbobs, the scabbard markings would seem to point to the 33rd Huron Battalion of the Canadian militia as the likely owner at some point. As for the strike-throughs on the GGFG markings on the bayonet, they would indicate removal from service with that regiment. As the rifles (and bayonets) moved through various regiments - and some moved a lot - the previous regimental markings would be struck out and markings for the new regiment would be added. The Ross is one of the few rifles where you can easily trace its history, as long as the stock hasn't been sanded. Normal syntax for the stock markings would be the battalion number or, in some cases, regimental acronym over a horizontal bar, with the rifle/rack number underneath the bar. Here's a photo of the buttstock markings on my Mk II Ross, which had its stock replace early in its life. Edited 2 April , 2018 by RangeRover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumbobs72 Posted 2 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 2 April , 2018 10 minutes ago, RangeRover said: Regarding the scabbard...<DOH>...that is what I get for posting late in the day. The 1909 date on the scabbard indicates it's an earlier Mk I scabbard, as used for the Mk II Ross. There was another clue in your first set of photos that I missed. That being the depth of the belt loop. The Mk II scabbard has a longer loop. The bayonet and scabbard have come together at some point in their history - not unusual and something I should have considered. The circular marks on the scabbard are more C-broad arrows. JMB1943, my assertion about the 7 14 being a date is because of the punch 'dot' between the 7.14. Drumbobs, the scabbard markings would seem to point to the 33rd Huron Battalion of the Canadian militia as the likely owner at some point. As for the strike-throughs on the GGFG markings on the bayonet, they would indicate removal from service with that regiment. As the rifles (and bayonets) moved through various regiments - and some moved a lot - the previous regimental markings would be struck out and markings for the new regiment would be added. The Ross is one of the few rifles where you can easily trace its history, as long as the stock hasn't been sanded. Normal syntax for the stock markings would be the battalion number or, in some cases, regimental acronym over a horizontal bar, with the rifle/rack number underneath the bar. Here's a photo of the buttstock markings on my Mk II Ross, which had its stock replace early in its life. That's great RangeRover, much thanks for the info, I thought it may have been a mismatch. I gather I will never know where it ended up after the GGFG in 1914. Probably with another infantry battalion? Looking at it, it had a tough/busy life...! That's a great Buttstock, loads of info there! Thanks for sharing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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