max7474 Posted 1 April , 2018 Share Posted 1 April , 2018 (edited) Can anyone confirm what was St Andrews Dublin OTC cap badge? Edited 1 April , 2018 by max7474 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 1 April , 2018 Share Posted 1 April , 2018 One for sale HERE Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 1 April , 2018 Share Posted 1 April , 2018 43 minutes ago, RaySearching said: One for sale HERE Ray The wrong St Andrews. That is presumably the cap badge of St Andrews University OTC (NOT "University College") RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 2 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 2 April , 2018 (edited) The badge shown is for the University in Scotland whose OTC was in the Senior Division. The one I am interested in is the St Andrew's College in Dublin, Ireland which had a Junior Division OTC from 1912-1922. This is a photo from the ST Andrew's College magazine,of the Irish OTC: but the badges are too indistinct to identify. I did wonder whether they wore the local Infantry RDF badge but the photo rules this out. Edited 2 April , 2018 by max7474 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 2 April , 2018 Share Posted 2 April , 2018 11 hours ago, rolt968 said: The wrong St Andrews. That is presumably the cap badge of St Andrews University OTC (NOT "University College") RM OK Wrong Badge Max Why not email the College direct the may have an archive department that may be able to assist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 2 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 2 April , 2018 I have done but have not had a reply as yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 2 April , 2018 Share Posted 2 April , 2018 (edited) This may be a red herring so apologies if it is. To my eye, which is not good, the bad looks an oval shape. I am wondering if was similar, but with different wording, to that shown in the centre of 1916 Medal illustrated at the link below, awarded to former pupils serving in the St Andrews VTC. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/british-medal-awarded-in-wake-of-1916-to-be-auctioned-1.2291317 Dave Edited 2 April , 2018 by HERITAGE PLUS Text correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 April , 2018 Share Posted 2 April , 2018 (edited) There are some Dublin UOTC badge images here: 1. https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/DUBLIN-UNIVERSITY-OFFICER-TRAINING-CORPS-OTC-GENUINE-CAP-BADGE-BY-JR-GAuNT/132543156209?hash=item1edc300ff1:g:XO8AAOSwX2xarmjH&_trkparms=gclientid%3D5tdKnmotFbXUMJksirdQWU58OCn50B2iVnBjfuiKQ32hkQC13FIGD4nhaI0UgMs2&_trksid=p2489528.m4335.l8656 2. https://pin.it/ebh4wpihgdp5yw 3. https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/candt-auctioneers/catalogue-id-srct10042/lot-1025f778-7df1-48a3-b419-a6b7011c6cad Edited 2 April , 2018 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 2 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 2 April , 2018 Thanks by those are the senior division for the UOTC and not the school Junior Division that I am interested in. The VTC was formed by old boys and alumni of the College so its likely that they had a similar badge. The medal has the same design as the school OTC button but this does not provide any certainty that the cap badge was the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Pegum Posted 3 April , 2018 Share Posted 3 April , 2018 (edited) Max 7474 probably knows all the following already, but to clarify: Officers Training Corps and Volunteer Training Corps were quite separate, and different, organisations. An O.T.C. at school or university level was for students to get some preliminary military training, probably with a view to commissions in the Army later. A V.T.C. unit consisted of older men, some of whom had military experience, and men too young or unfit for military service. The movement began spontaneously among civilians when WW I began, and the Territorial Army was mobilised, many of the men being 'invited' to volunteer for overseas service. Retired Army officers and civilians in many districts felt that there was a need to defend the homeland (invasion was genuinely feared), and set up V.T.Cs. The War Office moved to control it within two months of the beginning of the war, and were emphatic in distinguishing it from the Army: no public funds were provided, the uniforms were any colour by khaki (usually, Lovat green), ranks and insignia were different (a Sub-Commandant was equivalent to a Major, for example) and any arms and badges were provided by the Volunteers themselves. They wore red brassards with the letters G.R. (Georgius Rex), and were known widely throughout the United Kingdom as 'Gorgeous Wrecks'; also God's Rejected, Grandpa's Regiment or Genuine Relics! By the way, the V.T.Cs were quite distinct from the Territorial Army. Indeed, the first stated object of the V.T.C. Association was "to assist recruiting for the Regular and Territorial Army". I described the organisation in some detail in a paper 'The Gorgeous Wrecks and the opening shots in the Battle of Mount Street Bridge' (Irish Sword, XXXI (123), 75-86, Summer 2017). Also see John Morton Osborne, 'Defining their own patriotism. British Volunteer Training Corps in the first World War', in Journal of Contemporary History, 23 (1998), 62. I think it is very likely that the medal in Post 7 shows the badge used by the V.T.C. of St. Andrew's College (a school) in Dublin, not some St. Andrew's elsewhere, such as Scotland, since it was awarded to a man involved in the Battle of Mount Street Bridge. If the College O.T.C. button had a similar design to this, then the O.T.C. cap badge very probably had the same design, with a different inscription, of course. Michael Edited 3 April , 2018 by Michael Pegum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 April , 2018 Share Posted 3 April , 2018 (edited) Yes I agree that not all frequenting this section of the GWF will know about the VTC, but the veteran forum members will have seen many threads touching on them over the years just as I have. It’s interesting that St Andrews in Dublin formed a VTC unit. Like you and Dave (who posted a similar image), I suspect that the emblem on the centre of the medal at the following link was also the cap badge design: https://www.whytes.ie/art/1916-rising-1st-dublin-battalion-associated-volunteer-training-corps-medal-for-defender-of-beggars-bush-barracks-against-the-irish-volunteers/149283/?SearchString=&LotNumSearch=&GuidePrice=&OrderBy=LH&ArtistID=&ArrangeBy=list&NumPerPage=30&offset=531 Edited 3 April , 2018 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 5 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 5 April , 2018 I now have a close up of the OTC badge and it is indeed unrecorded in any reference book. The badge is oval surmounted by a King's Crown with St Andrew's Cross over the OTC title circlet. There are both thistles and shamrocks represented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 5 April , 2018 Share Posted 5 April , 2018 Any chance of a photo here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 9 October , 2018 Share Posted 9 October , 2018 The badge as featured on a swagger stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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