J D Belgrave DSO, RA

[michaeldr]

This question arises from reading Chapter 2-Haversack of Brian Garfield's book 'The Meinertzhagen Mystery – the life & legend of a colossal fraud'

 

Garfield's book is on the whole well researched and I have no problem accepting his statement that the real rider who dropped the famous haversack was in fact A. C. B. Neate. Or that not only was Meinertzhagen not involved in the execution of the ruse, but that he was not its author either.

 

The originator of the haversack idea is given as Lt Col James Dacres Belgrave, who in July 1917 became a Gen Staff Officer, Intelligence, in the EEF. 
quote - “Belgrave outlined his proposal at length, in a typed seven-page SECRET memo to Allenby” 

The footnote for this refers to file WO 95/4368 containing 'Operational notes from GHQ EEF GSO' which includes 'Memorandum from Lt Col J D Belgrave to Commanding General EEF', plus endorsements of Belgrave's proposals and Allenby's approval.

 

Garfield suggests that Neate's post-war intelligence work precluded him from speaking up earlier to contradict Meinertzhagen's fabrications [eg: http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/23rd-march-1956/13/sntas-strix-says-the-story-of-major-meinertzhagens] and he states that Belgrave did not speak up because he was already dead, having been killed later in the war.

 

This is the point where I run into a little difficulty
as the only James Dacres Belgrave casualty I can find is https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/30692/belgrave,-james-dacres/

 

Is this the author of the haversack ruse?

 

Thanks for your interest and for any help which you can provide here

Michael

 

edite to note: this thread's title has been altered after post No.10

Edited 31 March , 2018 by michaeldr

[Mark1959]

See your problem

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/belgrave.php

 

Cannot be him!

[Mark1959]

There is a John Darymple Belgrave. Lt Col. MIC shows list of officers etc entitled to 1914 Star was sent by CinC EEF. One of the forms was returned M. in. D. Ex RFA. Few MIDs with General HQ Staff.

[charlie962]

He was a Gunner perhaps?

 

J.D. Belgrave

Profile(D.S.O. L.G. 14.1.16); b. 10.9.81; e.s. of Colonel D. Belgrave; m. 1910, Gwladys, o.d. of Colonel Newcomen Watts; two s.; educ. Malvern; Woolwich; 2nd Lt., R.A., 6.1.00; Lt. 3.4.04; Capt. 23.5.08; Major 30.10.14; Bt. Lt.-Col. 3.6.19;

 

But this man wasn't killed ?

 

Edit  Mark has the same man.

Army list gives:

BELGRAVE, John Dalrymple, D.S.O., p.s.cf.
  Born 10/9/81. Comsd. 6/1/00. Col. 3/6/23
  (13/6/26). h.p. late Staff 8/4/32. ret. 29/7/33.

Edited 31 March , 2018 by charlie962

[Mark1959]

Note James Dacres Dad was Dalyrmple James. So suspect John Darymple maybe a relation. Theory: if plan was signed by someone as James Dacres was this a ruse and hiding his real identity in itself. If the author has looked up someone with those forenames he would arrive at the the RAF man and assume he died. 

[charlie962]

LG 1917 shows RA man to be LtCol Staff at the time but doesn't say Egypt.

 

                            

     

[Mark1959]

A better suggestion 

The footnote for this refers to file WO 95/4368 containing 'Operational notes from GHQ EEF GSO' which includes 'Memorandum from Lt Col J D Belgrave to Commanding General EEF', plus endorsements of Belgrave's proposals and Allenby's approval.

This gives initials only. So has the author just misidentified the memo's author. And we are just looking for an appropriate JD Belgrave.

I would also add that it was a sloppy piece of research by the author that we can be almost certain in one day that he has it wrong.

Edited 31 March , 2018 by Mark1959

[charlie962]

The Lt Col J D Belgrave DSO was MiD LG May 1917 but it is one of Haig's Despatches Apr 1917. But the LG extract I posted above has a date as T Lt Col Staff 1/8/17 which may fit the July 1917 date of appointment noted in OP ?

Edited 31 March , 2018 by charlie962

[Mark1959]

It is just a theory. It is clearly not James Dacres OBLI/RAF. What I forgot to say is that the CinC EEF 1914 Star Medal list ref on the MIC is dated 4/4/18. If my hypothesis is correct John Darymple may not have spoken out as he would have still been covered by the Official Secrets Act. He was re-employed, it appears, in early WW2.

edit - He gets a further MID from a Haig dispatch in France for service between Sep 1918 and March 1919. He certainly seems to be employed in high circles. This is getting a very smelly rat.

Edited 31 March , 2018 by Mark1959

[michaeldr]

33 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

A better suggestion 

The footnote for this refers to file WO 95/4368 containing 'Operational notes from GHQ EEF GSO' which includes 'Memorandum from Lt Col J D Belgrave to Commanding General EEF', plus endorsements of Belgrave's proposals and Allenby's approval.

This gives initials only. So has the author just misidentified the memo's author. And we are just looking for an appropriate JD Belgrave

 

Mark,

 

I think that you are onto it here: 

So has the author just misidentified the memo's author

Very probably/almost certainly, Yes!

 

I hope that this catches the eye of  Dick Flory, who is sure to have some more details on Lt Col J D Belgrave DSO RA

 

Mark & Charlie; thanks for your help

Michael

[charlie962]

John Dalrymple Belgrave died in 1955 so it would still fit with comments that all those in the know were dead by the time Army Diary was published;

But if this was the JD Belgrave, why didn't he support Neate ?

 

 

               

 

 

I think that GSO 1 has been transcribed as GSO Intelligence  in the book?

 

Charlie

[michaeldr]

Thanks for that Charlie; very interesting

10 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

if this was the JD Belgrave, why didn't he support Neate ?

Perhaps because his death in October 1955 was before Neate's letter to The Spectator in March 1956

(Garfield contends that Neate did not go public before then because of his post-WWI intelligence work

though he did challenge Meinertzhagen directly and privately, following an article in The Times ten years after Gaza III)

 

Mr Garfield may well, as you say, have mistaken GSO1 for GSOI

[Mark1959]

We are dealing with scraps here. The evidence is purely circumstantial for anyone including JDB RA. Jury out I think - but I think we can be sure it was not James Dacres.

Why I favour him based on the fact we know he was in the EEF in April 1918 (several months after the ruse I know). He has the correct intials and there is no other obvious alternative. He was clearly not an ordinary"gunner". Whilst I would be a little surprised if it was not him I would not be astonished. 

If it is him then there will be some red faces and he will deserve to be properly recognised for his achievement

[charlie962]

There was an old thread of relevance here. It suggested the AWM have copies of the Telephone Directories that may give names of staff. But I cannot find it. Can you?

Charlie

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

the AWM have copies of the Telephone Directories that may give names of staff. But I cannot find it. Can you?

 

Charlie,

 

Thanks for finding that ref.

I've been to the AWM website, but alas, like you cannot find the EEF 'phone directories online

I have however managed to find a couple of photographs of A C B Neate [the rider who 'dropped' the haversack] who served on Chauvel's staff

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C969318 & https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/B01513

Edited 31 March , 2018 by michaeldr

[charlie962]

GWF member Kim seems to have got a response for another man,  perhaps by emailing AWM ? But if they only have 1919 then it may not be good.

 

Charlie

Edited 31 March , 2018 by charlie962

[michaeldr]

Thanks again Charlie

Something to follow-up after the Easter break

[michaeldr]

My sincere thanks to Dick Flory for his very prompt assistance with this query

Dick's information is:

Lt Col J D Belgrave, RA [John Darymple Belgrave DSO]

was GSO2, XIV Army Corps until 27 May 17;

*he then served as GSO1, GHQ, EEF from 2 Aug 17 to 6 Sep 17;

from 7 Sep 17 to Jun 18 he was GSO1, Cyprus.  

What he did in the period 28 May 17 to 1 Aug 17 I am unable to determine but I would presume that he had some leave and would have used some of that time to travel from France to Egypt.  

 

*This ties in with A C B Neate's letter to The Spectator, where he states that he dropped the haversack on 12 September 1917

Edited 1 April , 2018 by michaeldr

[Mark1959]

The ultimate proof would be some clear indication in WO95/4368. Assuming the author read it, it would rather suggest there is no such indication

[michaeldr]

Proof of what Mark? I'm not sure I follow you here

 

On 3/31/2018 at 13:01, michaeldr said:

The footnote for this refers to file WO 95/4368 containing 'Operational notes from GHQ EEF GSO' which includes 'Memorandum from Lt Col J D Belgrave to Commanding General EEF' , plus endorsements of Belgrave's proposals and Allenby's approval.

Garfield made a mistake about the death in so far as he identified the wrong J D Belgrave

However you chaps have sorted that out and correctly pinned down the J D Belgrave in question: Lt Col James Dalrymple Belgrave DSO RA who was a GSO1 at EEF HQ at the right time

 

Are you suggesting that there is another possible candidate for the author of 'Memorandum from Lt Col J D Belgrave to Commanding General EEF'?

 

Edited 1 April , 2018 by michaeldr

[charlie962]

My money is on Mark's and my candidate! That last bit of excellent detail from Dick Flory is the confirmation I wanted.

 

Charlie

[Mark1959]

I think what we have is circumstantial. Rare name, right rank, right time etc. Compelling but not definitive proof that JDB RA hatched the ruse. Either the War Office document or some other document should give us the positive id. Or do you think I am being too pedantic? Just want us to avoid a howler similar to the one the author has done.

I am 99% sure the 3 of us have solved the problem.

Edited 1 April , 2018 by Mark1959

[charlie962]

His service file is one of those retained by the MoD. It would cost GBP30 to see it. Would it answer the question definitively?

Charlie

 

Name:	JD Belgrave
Birth Date:	10 Sep 1881
Service Number:	P18098
Rank:	Army Officers
Reference Number:	AOP000361954

Edited 1 April , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

.. and how about contacting the author BG direct on this site that has a discussion section that he checks from time to time?

 

http://www.briangarfield.net/disc.htm

 

Charlie

[michaeldr]

Thanks for that 

there's an e-address given there and I've sent Mr Garfield a link to this thread

Interesting that like our pal Dick, he's a Californian

 

edit to correct - message just received saying that the e-address given does not work

Thanks anyway

Edited 1 April , 2018 by michaeldr