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Remembered Today:

walter tull bbc east 22.3.18 6.30pm


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4 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Perhaps Lammy will demand a referendum on the matter. And another if he doesn't like the result.

 

    Sass- Let's keep it as strictly as possible to Tull.  Either way, Tull's memory gets a pounding. If he was really discriminated against, then the honourable course is for GWF members to find and test the evidence to-perhaps- a higher standard than Mr. Vasili and his chums (Guess who that means). If the "evidence" of Mr Vasili is open to challenge, we must be careful not to detract from the proper respect to be accorded to Walter Tull as a soldier fallen in his country's service. 

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Fair enough, GUEST. I suppose I was just trying to point out that some politicians will continue to push their own agenda without letting inconvenient facts or evidence get in the way.

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On 31/03/2018 at 10:42, sassenach said:

Fair enough, GUEST. I suppose I was just trying to point out that some politicians will continue to push their own agenda without letting inconvenient facts or evidence get in the way.

 

   My dear chap- this is not news!!! If Mr. Lammy chooses to base his actions on inaccuracies, then I think the first responsibility of any of us here is to establish the historical record with as much certainty and veracity as possible. Present writer excluded, there is easily enough historical skill and knowledge on GWF to achieve this- and I think it is in the interests of those interested in the Great War to do so. This is not "politics"- if a person prominent in the media- for whatever reason- chooses to air inaccuracies about the Great War then it goes against the grain of the activities of all of us here.

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On 31/03/2018 at 03:01, stiletto_33853 said:

The argument being put forward was that he led his men into action! Tull commanded 26 men in a large raid of a few hundred men and eleven officers. Tull's party played no part in the raid and waited back by the river whilst all other parties advanced towards the enemy.

 

Andy

I'm aware of the Vasili claim that "Tull led a patrol of 26 men across the Piave and returned them all unharmed" but haven't seen a reference to the larger size of the raid or the fact Tull's what we can probably describe as "Platoon" waited back by the river, can I ask what your reference is? 

 

Sam

Edited by roughdiamond
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Surprised this one hasn't appeared here yet:

 

https://postimg.org/image/cl3eshm7h/

 

Bairnsfather_Medals.jpg

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5 hours ago, roughdiamond said:

 

 

 

A word of caution if I may, as this is a contentious subject you may want to amend your use of the phrase "coloured Soldiers/Officers" as the term "coloured" is widely seen as offensive however innocently used, this maybe seized upon by someone wishing to discredit the point made by the post by questioning the sentiment behind it, can I suggest amending it to the less offensive "Soldier/Officer of colour".

 

Sam

 

And the difference is what, exactly?  I would actually like to know what is the approved term just now, it strikes me it's rather a minefield.

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17 minutes ago, 593jones said:

 

And the difference is what, exactly?  I would actually like to know what is the approved term just now, it strikes me it's rather a minefield.

 

Google and enlighten yourself.

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1 hour ago, roughdiamond said:

 

Google and enlighten yourself.

 

Did that and got lthis: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/03/30/295931070/the-journey-from-colored-to-minorities-to-people-of-color

 

That article tells me it's only a matter of time before terms change again.  It is a minefield!

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Hi

I enjoyed stiletto's reply (#123) which quoted the awards to Captain Allan Timms, RAMC

I am unaware of this man, could Andy enlighten me (and others I imagine) - google doesn't help me even.

regards

Andy

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41 minutes ago, AndyJohnson said:

Hi

I enjoyed stiletto's reply (#123) which quoted the awards to Captain Allan Timms, RAMC

I am unaware of this man, could Andy enlighten me (and others I imagine) - google doesn't help me even.

regards

Andy

Unfortunately Andy got the name wrong, you should look for Allan Noel Minns, as I referred to above #125.  As a starter:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Noel_Minns

https://norfolkinworldwar1.org/2015/04/28/norfolk-stories-allan-noel-minns/

 

Edited by Chris_B
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Hi Chris

Many thanks for your reply. I am doing a 'stop' at Douglas Manley's grave in Poperinge on an Ypres tour in June and want to weave in some of this as background to the contribution from soldiers of colour, and some of the distortions being put forward.

many thanks

Andy

Edited by AndyJohnson
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1 hour ago, Chris_B said:

Unfortunately Andy not the name wrong, you should look for Allan Noel Minns, as I referred to above #125.  As a starter:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Noel_Minns

https://norfolkinworldwar1.org/2015/04/28/norfolk-stories-allan-noel-minns/

 

 

Just to add to the info on Minns, this LG entry https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29468/supplement/1562 shows that on a couple of occasions he was promoted to Temporary Major whilst commanding 39th Field Ambulance. I find it obscene that this highly decorated Officer has a sum total of 6 lines attributed to him on Wikipedia and has been completely ignored by those mentioned previously.

 

Another man worth mentioning alongside Minns and Bemand is David Clemetson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Clemetson and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31796542

 

Sam

Edited by roughdiamond
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Sam,

 

Just how many more are out there?  Couldn't agree more about Minns, left in obscurity.  His death in a motor car accident near Newmarket early in April 1921 was reported in the press.  I don't' have any subs to read the details.  Also named in the press in 1915  for conspicuous gallantry and devotion duty etc. 

 

A pity the BBC webpage on David Clemetson, while informative, is couched in terms of today's racial politcis.

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 Somewhat surprised that Walter Tull has an Oxford DNB entry -though less surprised that it is by one Phil Vasili. .

   No specific reference for MID but says it was for action on the Piave in January 1918.

 

   I do not own a copy of "Manual of Military Law" 1914 edition but Mr. Vasili quotes from in-which his extemporisation in brackets, thus:

 

Not only was it virtually impossible for a man of colour to be commissioned an officer, but the Manual of Military Law, 1914 stated that 'aliens [including blacks must] … not … exercise any actual command or power' (p. 471)

 

      Could any kindly soul (that means you Stuart)  look up what page 471 ACTUALLY says   rather than Mr. Vasili's paraphrase in parentheses.

 

       Tull applied for a Temporary Commission in the Regular Army . His application was signed up correctly for good character. He was interviewed and approved for commission by the CO, 23rd Middlesex on 5th December 1916.  (From service file- Lt Col.Haig-?)

 

  I have also searched through keyword TULL on London Gazette  from 1.January 1917 to 30th June 1921 and can find no MID for Walter Tull

 

    There is is a blog about Tull on the TNA website, where the blogger has posted some pictures from Tull's service file, which I have now taken out twice. Again, the blogger quotes wording from an alleged MID but no picture or information from his service foile about it. After 2 goes at the service file, I have not found any MID mention at all in any document-let alone the wording used by Mr. Vasili or the TNA blogger. I have asked,through the TNA blogsite for the blogger to point me at the specific reference or scan out a photographh of the relevant document(s) in his service file. I have not found them and I have not seen them after 2 goes, then I would venture to suggest it is not there.

Edited by Guest
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 Somewhat surprised that Walter Tull has an Oxford DNB entry -though less surprised that it is by one Phil Vasili. .

   No specific reference for MID but says it was for action on the Piave in January 1918.

 

   I do not own a copy of "Manual of Military Law" 1914 edition but Mr. Vasili quotes from in-which his extemporisation in brackets, thus:

 

Not only was it virtually impossible for a man of colour to be commissioned an officer, but the Manual of Military Law, 1914 stated that 'aliens [including blacks must] … not … exercise any actual command or power' (p. 471)

 

      Could any kindly soul (that means you Stuart)  look up what page 471 ACTUALLY says   rather than Mr. Vasili's paraphrase in parentheses.

 

       Tull applied for a Temporary Commission in the Regular Army . His application was signed up correctly for good character. He was interviewed and approved for commission by the CO, 23rd Middlesex on 5th December 1916.  (From service file- Lt Col.Haig-?)

 

  I have also searched through keyword TULL on London Gazette  from 1.January 1917 to 30th June 1921 and can find no MID for Walter Tull

 

    There is is a blog about Tull on the TNA website, where the blogger has posted some pictures from Tull's service file, which I have now taken out twice. Again, the blogger quotes wording from an alleged MID but no picture or information from his service foile about it. After 2 goes at the service file, I have not found any MID mention at all in any document-let alone the wording used by Mr. Vasili or the TNA blogger. I have asked,through the TNA blogsite for the blogger to point me at the specific reference or scan out a photographh of the relevant document(s) in his service file. I have not found them and I have not seen them after 2 goes, then I would venture to suggest it is not there.

Here's the 'Manual of Military Law, 1914'. I've not yet had time for a look:

 

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031059614;view=2up;seq=8;skin=mobile

 

 

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Rushing in here, I have looked up the Manual of Military Law, 1914, which is available online :

Page 471 relates to Special Provisions as to Persons to be Enlisted and refers to the enlistment of aliens in the British Army.  The section that Vasili quotes/paraphrases is Note 3 at the end of the section and reads in full:

 

'3.Section 3 of the Act of Settlement forbids an alien to enjoy and office or place of trust, but does not prevent honorary rank in the British Army being conferred upon an alien, whether or not such honorary rank is accompanied by a formal commission.  Such a distingction is a matter or honour and dignity, and does not fall within the Act as long as the possession does not by virtue of his rank or commission exercise any actual command or power'

 

Clearly this section cannot have any relevance to Walter Tulll who was British by birth and not an alien.

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21 minutes ago, Uncle George said:

 

Here's the 'Manual of Military Law, 1914'. I've not yet had time for a look:

 

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031059614;view=2up;seq=8;skin=mobile

 

 

 

   Thanks UG- I ahve semi-access to Hathi, through U. Michigan but it is still very difficult to use- Very surprised that the 1907 edition is scanned in several times on Archive. Luck of the draw. The copy put up by  Young 593 Jones (fresh back from Rorke's Drift) no doubt has supplied  my late night reading for a while- for which, my thanks.

    Thus far, no reference relating to  Walter Tull,  his apparent unlawful commission and awards has proved to be accurate.  I suspect that the MID might just be a unit citation of some sort, rather than specific to Walter Tull. Is it just me but it seems to Your Humble that ll this stuff about false claims (if they are) by others about Walter Tull actually has the effect of bringing the man into disrepute and dishonour-when as a fallen officer of the Great War he is (and was until now) accorded memorialisation on a basis of equality. and honour. Just a thought.

  

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GUEST

 

According to this website http://www.ww1infantrycos.co.uk/middlesex.html the following chap was likely the one who signed Tull's commission paperwork.

 

https://portraitgallery.dragonschool.org/lt-colonel-alan-haig-brown/ also Wikipedia if desired.

 

Whilst there is limited information regarding his character he comes over as more of a 'progressive' than a 'blimp'.

 

He may well have been a patron for Tull; he was also killed on 25 March 1918.

 

Regards

 

Colin 

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On 03/04/2018 at 22:55, Colin W Taylor said:

GUEST

 

According to this website http://www.ww1infantrycos.co.uk/middlesex.html the following chap was likely the one who signed Tull's commission paperwork.

 

https://portraitgallery.dragonschool.org/lt-colonel-alan-haig-brown/ also Wikipedia if desired.

 

Whilst there is limited information regarding his character he comes over as more of a 'progressive' than a 'blimp'.

 

He may well have been a patron for Tull; he was also killed on 25 March 1918.

 

Regards

 

Colin 

 

   Thanks Colin for pointing out my own daftness!!. I had mentioned Haig-Brown before in this matter- he ,like Tull, had played football for Spurs. I always have difficulty in reading other people's handwriting and had not put 2 and 2 together.. 

   Nor that he was  killed the same day as Walter Tull. I wonder if Spurs have commemorated him on an equal basis.

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I would make a couple of points

 

1. What is an "alien" under Military Law. Rather than rely on "we all know" , I tried to find a definition in the manual, but failed. Is there a military definition for "alien" as in page 471, that existed in 1914

 

2. For what its worth, the online petition got nowhere

tull.jpg.32eabd71e46a6162488416106cd969d5.jpg

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5 minutes ago, corisande said:

I would make a couple of points

 

1. What is an "alien" under Military Law. Rather than rely on "we all know" , I tried to find a definition in the manual, but failed. Is there a military definition for "alien" as in page 471, that existed in 1914

 

2. For what its worth, the online petition got nowhere

tull.jpg.32eabd71e46a6162488416106cd969d5.jpg

They don't appear to have used their own definition, it would appear the used the same defintion used in law - that effectively an alien was anyone other than a 'natural born british subject'.

 

Even the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914 doesn't  specifically define Alien but it does point out exactly what a  'natural born british subject' is and that naturalisation would make an Alien one.

 

Craig

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17 minutes ago, corisande said:

1. What is an "alien" under Military Law. Rather than rely on "we all know" , I tried to find a definition in the manual, but failed. Is there a military definition for "alien" as in page 471, that existed in 1914

Someone who was not a British national??

 

British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914

 

Ah! Craig has just posted, suggesting that this doesn't help us much further

 

I'm trying to be even-minded about Vasili's arguments, but it's getting more and more difficult ...

 

Moonraker

 

EDIT:

 

As Walter was born in Folkestone, he was "British-born" - and so NOT an alien.

Edited by Moonraker
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28 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

Someone who was not a British national??

 

British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914

 

Ah! Craig has just posted, suggesting that this doesn't help us much further

 

I'm trying to be even-minded about Vasili's arguments, but it's getting more and more difficult ...

 

Moonraker

 

EDIT:

 

As Walter was born in Folkestone, he was "British-born" - and so NOT an alien.

The caveat I would add is that as the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914 defines 'natural born british subject' you sometimes have to be a little careful in case they have widened the definition slightly for specific purposes.

In this case as the whole purpose of the Act is to define Nationality etc (s1 'Definition of natural-born British subject')  we can be pretty certain that was the full definition in use from 7 Aug 1914.  s1(3) however adds "Nothing in this section shall, except as otherwise expressly provided, affect the status of any person born before the commencement of this Act".

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252
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