walter tull bbc east 22.3.18 6.30pm

[Steven Broomfield]

Lunatics ... asylums ...

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Lunatics ... asylums ...

 

  Us?

[Steven Broomfield]

Them

[roughdiamond]

5 hours ago, Dragoon said:

My opinion is that Walter Tull should be recognised and people to learn about the fact that he was the first black Officer in the British Army

 

Chris

If you read the link in Moonrakers post #16, there is overwhelming evidence he wasn't.

 

Sam

[Moonraker]

On 23/03/2018 at 13:26, Moonraker said:

... Incidentally, is it known what proportion of MC recommendations were turned down in 1918?

 

Moonraker

Seeking to answer my own question, I consulted Call-to-Arms by GWF's Charles Messenger, who notes evidence is sparse. But between August 23 and September 1917 within the 55th (West Lancashire) Division, there were recommendations for 64 MCs plus five bars; 49 and six bars were awarded. In April 1918 within the same division there were recommendations for 92 MCs including five bars; from these there were 66 awards.

 

Forces War Records

 

suggests that until recently the MC could not be awarded posthumously:

 

"During World War II Captain Sam Manekshaw ... was hit by a burst of machine-gun fire and severely wounded in the stomach. Major General D.T. Cowan spotted Manekshaw holding on to life and was aware of his valour in face of stiff resistance from the Japanese. Fearing the worst, Major General Cowan quickly pinned his own Military Cross ribbon on to Manekshaw saying, 'A dead person cannot be awarded a Military Cross'. The first posthumous Military Cross was that awarded to Captain Herbert Westmacott  for gallantry in Northern Ireland in 1980."

 

Taking Cowan literally, even had Walter been recommended for an MC before his death, he could not have been awarded one after it.

 

It might be, of course, that Cowan was mistaken, and it would be useful to locate contemporary guidance on MC awards. But if he was correct, then surely even Vasili would not suggest that the rule-book be retrospectively re-written a century later?

 

Moonraker

[593jones]

37 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

 then surely even Vasili would not suggest that the rule-book be retrospectively re-written a century later?

 

Moonraker

 

I wouldn't be too sure of that. 

[roughdiamond]

5 hours ago, MikeMeech said:

Hi

 

Being 'non-white' didn't prevent 2Lt Indra Lal ROY RFC/RAF being gazetted for the DFC in September 1918, sadly he had been KIA on 22 July 1918 at the age of 19.  He had ten claims (some shared) to his name at the time.

 

Mike

 

Being "non-white" didn't stop 8 Indian and 2 Ghurkha soldiers being awarded the VC in WW1.

 

So Vasili's baseless assertion is that the Army stopped Walter Tull receiving a 3rd level bravery award for reasons of race but awarded those 10 the level 1 bravery award! In addition how many level 2 DCM's or level 3 MM's were awarded to other "non-white soldiers?

 

Sam

[Dragoon]

26 minutes ago, roughdiamond said:

 

Chris

If you read the link in Moonrakers post #16, there is overwhelming evidence he wasn't.

 

Sam

Sam, 

I stand corrected.

He is still an inspiration, and a hope he did change a few people's ways of thinking. Thanks Sam, I should have read that before posting, very interesting.

Cheers

 

Chris

[Steven Broomfield]

I'm not utterly sure I'm right, but an award could be made posthumously, so long as the recommendation pre-dated death (except VC and MiD awards).

 

Interesting that no-one seems in the least concerned about any o.r.s who 'should' have received gongs. Maybe white working class blokes aren't interesting enough.

[paulgranger]

I have read somewhere else in the past few days that the decision to award the MC posthumously was made in 1979,  but only for recommendations made after then. No retrospective awards would be considered.

[Guest]

 Perhaps,just for example:

1) Some of the other 28 men of the 23rd Middlesex killed that day.  The MM for some ORs,no doubt?

 

2) or a retrospective  MC for the footballer killed as an officer that day- Lt Col. Alan Haig-Brown- ex Carthusian and Clapton-  to whose gallantry there is contemporary written testimony. See the Lancing College website.

[Moonraker]

2 hours ago, Moonraker said:

... But if he was correct, then surely even Vasili would not suggest that the rule-book be retrospectively re-written a century later?

 

Moonraker

 

1 hour ago, 593jones said:

 

I wouldn't be too sure of that. 

Were Vasili to suggest that, then surely he must agree that consideration should be given to white officers who died after being recommended for an MC but before being awarded it.

49 minutes ago, paulgranger said:

I have read somewhere else in the past few days that the decision to award the MC posthumously was made in 1979,  but only for recommendations made after then. No retrospective awards would be considered.

Which might explain the "first" posthumous award being to Westmacott in 1980.

 

Moonraker

[Moonraker]

 Perhaps,just for example:

1) Some of the other 28 men of the 23rd Middlesex killed that day.  The MM for some ORs,no doubt?

 

2) or a retrospective  MC for the footballer killed as an officer that day- Lt Col. Alan Haig-Brown- ex Carthusian and Clapton-  to whose gallantry there is contemporary written testimony. See the Lancing College website.

A link always helps!

 

Lancing College War Memorial

 

(I'm unclear as to which preceding post GUEST refers in his "for examples". "That day" would appear to relate to the one on which Walter Tull was killed. At first I thought he was citing Haig-Brown as an example of an officer who HAD won a posthumous MC! But then it's past my bedtime ...)

 

Moonraker

[Guest]

On 24/03/2018 at 21:55, Moonraker said:

A link always helps!

 

Lancing College War Memorial

 

(I'm unclear as to which preceding post GUEST refers in his "for examples". "That day" would appear to relate to the one on which Walter Tull was killed. At first I thought he was citing Haig-Brown as an example of an officer who HAD won a posthumous MC! But then it's past my bedtime ...)

 

Moonraker

  No,it's not- It's me being obtuse-the prospect of losing an hour's kip has scrambled my brain.   Yes, the others of the 23rd Middlesex (to whom Walter Tull was attached) killed that day. It is a fluke that Haig-Brown was also a semi-professional footballer but the testimonies to his gallantry are firm.

 

(I have not followed the Tull story in the greatest detail- Was it possible  that Haig-Brown may have assisted Tull to a commission in the Die Hards or to have him under his command?  I have not read Vasili''s work but is it covered there? )

[roughdiamond]

 Perhaps,just for example:

1) Some of the other 28 men of the 23rd Middlesex killed that day.  The MM for some ORs,no doubt?

 

2) or a retrospective  MC for the footballer killed as an officer that day- Lt Col. Alan Haig-Brown- ex Carthusian and Clapton-  to whose gallantry there is contemporary written testimony. See the Lancing College website.

Not sure if you are aware but the action Vasili claims Tull was recommended for the MC wasn't on the day he was killed but "The winter of 1917/18 in Italy where he led 26 men in a raid over the fast flowing river Piave and brought them all back safe".

 

Sam

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, roughdiamond said:

 

Not sure if you are aware but the action Vasili claims Tull was recommended for the MC wasn't on the day he was killed but "The winter of 1917/18 in Italy where he led 26 men in a raid over the fast flowing river Piave and brought them all back safe".

 

Sam

 

   I was unaware of that.  If going on a raid was the criterion, then a goodly number of MCs are due to others. Equality-how could one argue against that ?.

     

   As a novice to the Tull debate, I note that Haig-Brown also played for Tottenham when they were in the Souther nLeague (and FA Cup winners when so). Given Haig-Brown's previous military experience in the war as a trainer, then this link to Tull other than in the same unit on day of death is an intriguing one. Though I am loath to put royalties money in Mr. Vasili's pocket, I fear I must do so.

    Wonder who signed off on Tull's good character on his commission application.....

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

As a novice to the Tull debate, I note that Haig-Brown also played for Tottenham when they were in the Souther nLeague (and FA Cup winners when so).

Only the FA Cup? That's rubbish that.

My grandmother's second cousin was goalkeeper for Preston North End when they won the FA Cup AND Football League Championship double in 1889. They won the cup without conceding a goal. He also played for Wales.

He was in the RAMC, went to France in 1915 and ended up a lowly Lt. Colonel.

And all he got was a pesky star, BWM & VM.

I reckon  he should have had more, much more...

[593jones]

2 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

I'm not utterly sure I'm right, but an award could be made posthumously, so long as the recommendation pre-dated death (except VC and MiD awards).

 

Interesting that no-one seems in the least concerned about any o.r.s who 'should' have received gongs. Maybe white working class blokes aren't interesting enough.

 

I don't know if it clarifies the matter or not, but 'JSP1, Honours and Awards in the Armed Forces, Part 1, Directive', has this to say:

 

Posthumous Awards

2.09. A posthumous award is given for an act of gallantry in an action in which the individual is killed, or following which he or she dies, from any cause, before The Sovereign’s formal approval has been given to the award proposed. If the recipient dies after an award has been approved by The Sovereign, but before it is ‘Gazetted’, the award is not posthumous and the Gazette entry should show ‘since killed in action’, ‘since died of wounds’ or ‘since deceased’. When possible the Next of Kin should be made aware of the circumstances resulting in the recommendation for a posthumous award.

2.10. All Armed Forces and ‘Civilian’ gallantry awards and Level 4 State commendations may be awarded posthumously. However, there is no provision for posthumous appointments to Orders, including the DSO.

 

 

[Steven Broomfield]

Thanks, Jonesy.

 

Here's a totally pointless question: if it is decided working-class white blokes were to be suitable for retrospective awards, and given that the MM was discontinued, would they get MCs, or would the MM be reinstated just for them?

[Gareth Davies]

I have avoided all the WT nonsense. I spent some of today at Favreuil where he was killed 100 years ago.

[TGM]

A recommendation for an award may be is just that, a recommendation and not an entitlement, but in 2018 I welcome those who wish to reappraise those who served, or chose not to, in the GW, e.g., as per how we now remember conscientious objectors, and those  shot at dawn etc..

 

I would like to think the mores, laws and rules which govern society change over time as society develops and becomes more enlightened.

Edited 25 March , 2018 by TGM

[roughdiamond]

Another candidate for first Black British Officer as noted on Twitter by Taff Gillingham, Dr Allan Noel Minns DSO, MC, RAMC.

https://norfolkinworldwar1.org/2015/04/28/norfolk-stories-allan-noel-minns/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

Sam

[Moonraker]

17 hours ago, 593jones said:

 

I don't know if it clarifies the matter or not, but 'JSP1, Honours and Awards in the Armed Forces, Part 1, Directive', has this to say:

 

Posthumous Awards

2.09. A posthumous award is given for an act of gallantry in an action in which the individual is killed, or following which he or she dies, from any cause, before The Sovereign’s formal approval has been given to the award proposed. If the recipient dies after an award has been approved by The Sovereign, but before it is ‘Gazetted’, the award is not posthumous and the Gazette entry should show ‘since killed in action’, ‘since died of wounds’ or ‘since deceased’. When possible the Next of Kin should be made aware of the circumstances resulting in the recommendation for a posthumous award.

2.10. All Armed Forces and ‘Civilian’ gallantry awards and Level 4 State commendations may be awarded posthumously. However, there is no provision for posthumous appointments to Orders, including the DSO.

 

 

Surely this clarifies only the position today? Googling the Directive's title leads to a publication dated January 8, 2015. What we need is the equivalent of a century ago.

 

The Forces War Records website to which I linked in Post 30 is presumably as authoritative as any, and states that the first posthumous MC was as late as 1980.

 

If the criterion I've marked in bold existed in 1918, then it wouldn't apply to Walter, as it would appear from post 40 that Vasili believes the action that earned his  MC recommendation was before that in which he died.

 

Moonraker

[ss002d6252]

In 1916 the issue of posthumous awards was being discussed in Parliament - http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1916/oct/25/posthumous-honoues#S5CV0086P0_19161025_HOC_150


The position does appear to changed slightly and by 1919 it was clarified that:
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1919/feb/26/posthumous-honours-naval-and-military#S5CV0112P0_19190226_HOC_138


As to when the change that Churchill refers to happened I have not yet found - it is clear that the change, once introduced, was not retrospective but even then it required the had been the intent to make the application before the officer's death.

Craig

[Hedley Malloch]

There may have been numerous gallantry awards made to Indian soldiers, but those awarded to soldiers of Afro-Caribbean origin serving in predominantly white regiments are much thinner on the ground.  There was an article in Stand To some years ago on the subject by Paul Reed in which I think he pointed that there was only such soldier who had been awarded the DCM.  AIR, the article was based on his dissertation for his Master's degree.

 

So why are not non-white soldiers being honoured in proportion to their numbers?  There are only two explanations: either they are less brave and courageous than their white comrades and the distribution of medals merely reflects this reality - or there is something else going on .  Like institutionalised racism in the 1914-1918 British army perhaps?

 

Where there is a will, there is a way.  Where the British army wants to make awards, it finds a way around apparently insurmountable bureaucratic and procedural obstacles.  The classic case is of Louise Bettignies, a Frenchwoman who died before she could receive her CBE for spying services rendered in occupied France and Belgium.  The CBE is membership of an Order which can only be conferred on the living.  The Army got round this by backdating either the date of her death or the award - I forget which.  So let's not get bogged down in petty administrative detail about 'eligibility' which is conveniently forgotten when it suits the Army's book.

 

If anyone here still thinks that honouring Tull 'dishonours' other soldiers who may have performed comparable acts of gallantry without recognition, then they are quite entitled to lobby on their behalf.  Start writing to your MPs, papers, collect signatures for petitions ... Go for it.