David Filsell Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 As an additional point, would I now, if buying a certified deactivated SMLE from a collector, not a dealer, be breaking any existing regulations, or he in selling it to me be doing so? Could it, for instance be gifted to me, as a present? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 19 minutes ago, David Filsell said: As an additional point, would I now, if buying a certified deactivated SMLE from a collector, not a dealer, be breaking any existing regulations, or he in selling it to me be doing so? Could it, for instance be gifted to me, as a present? Mine is technically defectively deactivated in its current state, I can't sell, gift or legally do anything with it unless it has been brought up to current legal EU spec. It would be me or my family later on that would be breaking the law if it were passed on without being re-examined and altered, and not the recipient as far as I am aware. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 24 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 24 July , 2018 There you are being 'fined' for owning something that was perfectly legal eighteen months ago. Nobody knows where the deacts are, so it will be decades before even the majority are brought up to the new spec. Also if you own a lathe you are now under suspicion because you have the 'potential' to make a firearm, they haven't cottoned on to 3D printers yet. The laws get dafter and less workable and crime does not decrease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 Regret that there are those- which means me- who believe that, given the increasing use of re-activated firearms in criminal activity, the regulations are nowhere near tight enough. Excellent though Orwell's 1984 is, it is not strong on it's narrative about gun crime. While I have some sympathy for collectors of militaria, the abuse of de-acts by others means that a policy of "whatever it takes" to reduce this trend MUST apply, It is much better to be a frustrated collector than a dead passer-by. One of my former customers as a booksellers- a distinctly strange human being (for other reasons) was jailed earlier this month for holding a number of firearms and several hundred rounds of live ammunition. The price of being largely a safe society without guns is that measures MUST be very strict indeed against ANY form of access to guns. Mate, i am an ex-pat Englishman now living in NZ where we own about 30 gun per 100 people compared to about 6 per 100 in the UK, we have no such thing as a deactivated weapon in our firearms laws & so all the machine guns etc in NZ held in private hands are still live though we are not allowed to fire them unless we hold a specific endorsement on our licence & then only blanks but all rifles can be fired with live ammo & certain handguns but yet we have a lower homicide rate per 100,000 people than the UK, how can that be!! I'll tell you why, gun control is just gun control it is not crime control, people are the ones doing the killing, guns are just one of the many tools used, you can remove all the guns in the world but you would still have all the evil people killing innocent people, remove the evil people & suddenly you will have no gun problem & no need for gun control because you have crime control which can only be achieved by having the powers that be concentrate on the evil & not the softer target that are the licenced firearms owners. Pic of my main gunsafe, not a single deact or registered gun here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 Agree with everything you say- Gosh!! Those pigeons and rats down your way must put up one helluva fight!. On a serious note-yes, we realise that the problem is elsewhere in buckets-from many other causes and in many different ways. We are not allowed to comment on current politics- but what you say is no surprise. Twas ever thus. But I think also that "grin and bear it" is the only real option for militaria owners over here in the UK- and the hope that by sensible persuasion that the regs. can be honed and modified. But I would not hold my breath as to when... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 (edited) Checks were being made at War & Peace this morning to see if traders were selling guns with the correct EU deact certificates. One well known trader I talked to said they hoped that things might change once we are out of the clutches of the EU and that a Statutory Instrument may go through the house making things sensible again. i.e allowing trading in 'old spec' deacts again. Edited 24 July , 2018 by Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
593jones Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 23 hours ago, T8HANTS said: There is one more point, if I understand the current proposals correctly (and I may be mistaken) in the very near future, all magazine rifles held on FAC will be restricted to single shot, their magazines will be fixed and restricted, so all the legally held Enfields, Mausers etc will be butchered in order to reduce non existent bolt action rifle crime. I think they are going to called 'especially dangerous firearms' so the public react in a positive way to the new restrictions and those who's complain will be regarded as anti-social. Well, that would mean the end of the 'Mad Minute' in completion shooting, and of course it would make the public much safer, wouldn't it! Calling them 'especially dangerous firearms' would put the correct spin on it so that it appeared perfectly reasonable. What a depressing thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 28 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said: What is really depressing is that this has nothing to do with research into WW1. Perhaps the mods would care to comment? TR But it has everything to do with the arms of WW1 & once those are gone they will come after your bayonets etc etc & then this forum will be become redundant or just a place to come & reminisce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 24 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 24 July , 2018 50 minutes ago, 593jones said: Well, that would mean the end of the 'Mad Minute' in completion shooting, and of course it would make the public much safer, wouldn't it! Calling them 'especially dangerous firearms' would put the correct spin on it so that it appeared perfectly reasonable. What a depressing thought. The under-lever rifles are to banned completely I understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, 5thBatt said: But it has everything to do with the arms of WW1 & once those are gone they will come after your bayonets etc etc & then this forum will be become redundant or just a place to come & reminisce. I removed my post because I realised it would cause ignorant comment. But since you have brought it up I suggest you are taking absolute nonsense. If you really believe that this forum survives on firearms legislation then perhaps you need to go somewhere else. Think about it! TR Edited 24 July , 2018 by Terry_Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 24 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 24 July , 2018 There are a great many on here who do collect the weaponry, and they are already after your bayonets (in the UK). Very soon, if collector A wishes to sell a bayonet to collector B he will not be able to post the item, that is to banned under the proposed legislation. He will have to deliver the bayonet in person and ascertain that collector B is over the age of 18. In the meantime should he be stopped on the highway by the police and the bayonet discovered, the contemplated transaction may not be regarded as a defense and collector could well find himself on serious charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said: I removed my post because I realised it would cause ignorant comment. But since you have brought it up I suggest you are taking absolute nonsense. If you really believe that this forum survives on firearms legislation then perhaps you need to go somewhere else. Think about it! TR No i dont believe it survives on firearms legislation but it survives on collectors & their collections which is impacted by legislation, if all my guns were taken away, i certainly would not bother with forums as it would be too depressing, even the act of reseach will become more difficult without the access to examples, admittedly the photos will survive but even they are being deleted & banned on some social media, we are on a vey slippery slope, burying ones head in the sand will not make it go away. ETA i have very little doubt if the laws in the UK & Europe were on a par with current laws in NZ there would be many more forums members & i have very little doubt members will/have be/been dropping off as ownership becomes more expensive & restrictive, forums survive by their membership, no members, no forums! Edited 24 July , 2018 by 5thBatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
593jones Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 7 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said: Checks were being made at War & Peace this morning to see if traders were selling guns with the correct EU deact certificates. One well known trader I talked to said they hoped that things might change once we are out of the clutches of the EU and that a Statutory Instrument may go through the house making things sensible again. i.e allowing trading in 'old spec' deacts again. Out of interest, did the traders carry much stock in light of the new regulations, and did they appear to be doing much business? I can't help but think that the trader you mention is being slightly optimistic regarding a Statutory Instrument to change the law back. I find it hard to believe that any politician of any party would see any advantage in doing so. Does this make me a pessimist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 6 minutes ago, 593jones said: can't help but think that the trader you mention is being slightly optimistic regarding a Statutory Instrument to change the law back. I find it hard to believe that any politician of any party would see any advantage in doing so. Does this make me a pessimist? I think you're being more of a realist sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 9 hours ago, 593jones said: Out of interest, did the traders carry much stock in light of the new regulations, and did they appear to be doing much business? I can't help but think that the trader you mention is being slightly optimistic regarding a Statutory Instrument to change the law back. I find it hard to believe that any politician of any party would see any advantage in doing so. Does this make me a pessimist? Well he's part of the leading DWA group so he knows more than I do. I see this whole situation escalating into something so unreal that they will soon call 18th Century cannons, 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' and have them all destroyed. Our laws on firearms were sensible in a 'well controlled' way but it is now becoming so OTT that it's unreal and generally stupid. I will mourn the loss of the 'mad minute'. What a stupid change. This over-control of deacts will not stop a single crime and it is clearly closing down what was a good market for collectors, which benefited the gunsmith trade and at the same time took live weapons off the street. My gunsmith was frequently passed weapons that had been found in house clearances, often WW1 rifles. All of these he deactivated. From the prices I saw yesterday at W&P some of the early EU spec machine guns with some moving parts have soared in price. This probably means that old old spec deacts are probably being traded under the counter for stellar prices. Driving any market underground benefits nobody. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 22 hours ago, 5thBatt said: Mate, i am an ex-pat Englishman now living in NZ where we own about 30 gun per 100 people compared to about 6 per 100 in the UK, we have no such thing as a deactivated weapon in our firearms laws & so all the machine guns etc in NZ held in private hands are still live though we are not allowed to fire them unless we hold a specific endorsement on our licence & then only blanks but all rifles can be fired with live ammo & certain handguns but yet we have a lower homicide rate per 100,000 people than the UK, how can that be!! I'll tell you why, gun control is just gun control it is not crime control, people are the ones doing the killing, guns are just one of the many tools used, you can remove all the guns in the world but you would still have all the evil people killing innocent people, remove the evil people & suddenly you will have no gun problem & no need for gun control because you have crime control which can only be achieved by having the powers that be concentrate on the evil & not the softer target that are the licenced firearms owners. Pic of my main gunsafe, not a single deact or registered gun here Just what the NRA says in the USA. Fortunately, there they don't have a problem with gun crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 5 hours ago, healdav said: Just what the NRA says in the USA. Fortunately, there they don't have a problem with gun crime. You miss the point of what 5thBatt says entirely. The USA may be in some places, a dysfunctional society, but clearly New Zealand isn't, neither was the UK. As ever, the more gun controls that are put on legal users and owners, the more illegal gun crime thrives. Not because decent people are committing the crime but because the society itself is rather sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.B. Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 I'm very much in agreement with most of the other comments on here in that I feel the recent changes to the law will serve no useful purpose in terms of combatting actual armed crime. Imagine it's the early 2000s, you're a heavy-duty criminal and you need to get tooled-up. Do you: A) Spend over £1.5k acquiring an old-spec P08 Lange Pistole, then acquire all of the necessary parts, then contact someone to carry out the work for you -all of which are criminal offences in their own right- which won't actually produce a functioning firearm anyway. B ) Use your criminal contacts to set up a meet with Big Vern in the carpark of "The Docker's Fist", hand over an envelope of used notes and walk away with a fully working Mac10, AK variant of your choice or whatever takes your fancy. Have any reliable statistics about the use of UK deactivated weapons in armed crime ever been compiled and released...that surely has to be key in terms of debating the necessity and usefulness (or otherwise) of any changes to our legislation. All the best Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 26 July , 2018 Share Posted 26 July , 2018 Regarding MAC 10's yes they have been used in UK crime but of course non of them were deactivated guns. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2632525/James-Bond-film-man-convicted-of-supplying-machine-guns-linked-to-high-profile-murders.html In this instance they were replicas intended for the film industry. These would be far easier to convert than any gun that had been through the UK spec deact process. So again another red herring that poor old British collectors are picking up the tab for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casperdog Posted 26 July , 2018 Share Posted 26 July , 2018 As we leave the EU in March 2019 does any of this have relevance? It seems we have to keep their laws for a year or two after 2019. But someone probably knows the details? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
593jones Posted 26 July , 2018 Share Posted 26 July , 2018 On 25/07/2018 at 09:32, Gunner Bailey said: Well he's part of the leading DWA group so he knows more than I do. Well, I hope he's right, it would give some cause for optimism (never thought I'd find myself typing that!). It would, at least, make it possible for those of us who own currently ' defectively de-activated' firearms the opportunity to sell them on if we wished without expensive work being carried out on them. On 24/07/2018 at 11:42, 5thBatt said: Mate, i am an ex-pat Englishman now living in NZ where we own about 30 gun per 100 people compared to about 6 per 100 in the UK, we have no such thing as a deactivated weapon in our firearms laws & so all the machine guns etc in NZ held in private hands are still live though we are not allowed to fire them unless we hold a specific endorsement on our licence & then only blanks but all rifles can be fired with live ammo & certain handguns but yet we have a lower homicide rate per 100,000 people than the UK, how can that be!! I'll tell you why, gun control is just gun control it is not crime control, people are the ones doing the killing, guns are just one of the many tools used, you can remove all the guns in the world but you would still have all the evil people killing innocent people, remove the evil people & suddenly you will have no gun problem & no need for gun control because you have crime control which can only be achieved by having the powers that be concentrate on the evil & not the softer target that are the licenced firearms owners. Pic of my main gunsafe, not a single deact or registered gun here That's your main gunsafe? How many others do you have? Seriously, that's an outstanding collection and looks like a very good reason to move to New Zealand, pity I'm too old! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 26 July , 2018 Share Posted 26 July , 2018 1 hour ago, 593jones said: Well, I hope he's right, it would give some cause for optimism (never thought I'd find myself typing that!). It would, at least, make it possible for those of us who own currently ' defectively de-activated' firearms the opportunity to sell them on if we wished without expensive work being carried out on them. That's your main gunsafe? How many others do you have? Seriously, that's an outstanding collection and looks like a very good reason to move to New Zealand, pity I'm too old! I have 3 safes, one has the sporters & parts guns the other is in my workshop but is empty 99.9% of the time as its just for temp storage for when i either take a rifle to work to clean or repair or if i receive a new toy, i am self employed & work alone so no issues with guns at work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted 26 July , 2018 Share Posted 26 July , 2018 its a shame when animosity joins the forum. Ive been dropping in and out of the thread and not contributed. back in the seventies I lived in the country, cycled everywhere with mates from other villages, fishing rods on one side of crossbar, air rifles on the other, a bag of food on our backs and bowie knives on our belts. never had a problem. couldnt do it now. then we grew up, hit 16 and got more killing machines, mopeds, then at 17 bigger ones cars, and from 16 or 17 discovered the pleasure of beer... all these things have been hit by government legislation same as deacts, more kids been killed in or by cars and on bikes but not yet banned. every one is going to have a different reason for keeping or banning anything. New Zealand has not had much trouble , yet, but somewhere along the line who knows, then it could be a different matter, if TPOTUS gets kicked out his successor could push for a change in laws that would upset the NRA, just like the current occupier has done with his predecessors health laws. the current EU regulations on motorcycles is only the next step in regulation. I passed a test on a 50 , stepped up to a 250 passed full test and can ride unlimited cc. all for £100 today its a couple of hundred for the first stage then £500 minimum for next stage and limited to cc for 2 years. its driving teenagers away from bikes. a few lessons and one test and you can drive a Porsche. Motorcycle Euro4 could kill off more riders along with many small garages like mine, bikes must now be fitted with data points so owners can fault find their own faults for a £20 hand held unit not a £2000 snap on one. even if we leave the EU we will still be governed by their rules as the manufacturers overseas will not want to build two specs of the same machine, likewise UK makers like Triumph would have to make different spec bikes to sell outside the UK. still have an air rifle and two pistols capable of doing a lot of damage also have machined some cases to use different smaller shells in larger rifles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 26 July , 2018 Share Posted 26 July , 2018 1 hour ago, chaz said: its a shame when animosity joins the forum. Ive been dropping in and out of the thread and not contributed. back in the seventies I lived in the country, cycled everywhere with mates from other villages, fishing rods on one side of crossbar, air rifles on the other, a bag of food on our backs and bowie knives on our belts. never had a problem. couldnt do it now. then we grew up, hit 16 and got more killing machines, mopeds, then at 17 bigger ones cars, and from 16 or 17 discovered the pleasure of beer... all these things have been hit by government legislation same as deacts, more kids been killed in or by cars and on bikes but not yet banned. every one is going to have a different reason for keeping or banning anything. New Zealand has not had much trouble , yet, but somewhere along the line who knows, then it could be a different matter, if TPOTUS gets kicked out his successor could push for a change in laws that would upset the NRA, just like the current occupier has done with his predecessors health laws. the current EU regulations on motorcycles is only the next step in regulation. I passed a test on a 50 , stepped up to a 250 passed full test and can ride unlimited cc. all for £100 today its a couple of hundred for the first stage then £500 minimum for next stage and limited to cc for 2 years. its driving teenagers away from bikes. a few lessons and one test and you can drive a Porsche. Motorcycle Euro4 could kill off more riders along with many small garages like mine, bikes must now be fitted with data points so owners can fault find their own faults for a £20 hand held unit not a £2000 snap on one. even if we leave the EU we will still be governed by their rules as the manufacturers overseas will not want to build two specs of the same machine, likewise UK makers like Triumph would have to make different spec bikes to sell outside the UK. still have an air rifle and two pistols capable of doing a lot of damage also have machined some cases to use different smaller shells in larger rifles NZ has 240,000 licened firearms owners out of a population of around 4 million, whats the number for the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 July , 2018 Share Posted 26 July , 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, 5thBatt said: NZ has 240,000 licened firearms owners out of a population of around 4 million, whats the number for the UK? Last figures for 2017 below. UK pop. is about 60 million Thus, one firearm for roughly every 17 Kiwis. UK figure is one firearm for 378 Brits. An interesting part of the statistics, which shows how responsible firearms owners (the legal ones) are- the refusal is 0. 0023% (although the real figure is likely to be higher, as some licence holders will not renew if they know they will be refused) Firearm certificates there were 154,958 firearm certificates as at 31 March 2017; an increase of 1% (1,554) compared with the previous year; there were 559,302 firearms (covered by firearm certificates) as at 31 March 2017; an increase of 4% (20,108) compared with the previous year ; there were 9,825 new applications for firearm certificates in the year to 31 March 2017, of which 98% (9,620) were granted and 2% (205) were refused; a total of 358 firearms certificates were revoked in the year to 31 March 2017; a decrease of 10% (-38) compared with the previous year; Shotgun certificates there were 561,413 shotgun certificates as at 31 March 2017; a decrease of 1% (-5,602) compared with the previous year; there were 1,349,099 shotguns (covered by shotgun certificates) as at 31 March 2017; an increase of 1% (17,536) compared with the previous year ; there were 23,718 new applications for shotgun certificates in the year to 31 March 2017, 98% (23,128) were granted and 2% (590) were refused ; a total of 1,216 shotgun certificates were revoked in the year to 31 March 2017; a decrease of 10% (-133) compared with the previous year. (US figures for comparison: Edited 26 July , 2018 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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